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I strongly doubt that there are any competitive powerlifters who train the O-lifts to improve their powerlifting and the same would apply to Oly lifters training powerlifts.

Agree; having spent some time in both now I am amazed at how little crossover there is between weightlifting and powerlifting (likely same for bodybuilding, but I know nothing about that). You'd think they both use a barbell so they'd be more similar, but it is indeed like two different worlds. About the only crossover I can think of offhand is they both do rows of some kind as an accessory lift. Exercise selection is different, reps/sets/programming is different, method of pulling off the floor is different, overhead positions are different, squatting style and emphasis is different, strength/power emphasis is different, use of tension and speed is different, equipment is different.... But yet, still all about moving a barbell. Amazing.
 
Agree; having spent some time in both now I am amazed at how little crossover there is between weightlifting and powerlifting (likely same for bodybuilding, but I know nothing about that). You'd think they both use a barbell so they'd be more similar, but it is indeed like two different worlds. About the only crossover I can think of offhand is they both do rows of some kind as an accessory lift. Exercise selection is different, reps/sets/programming is different, method of pulling off the floor is different, overhead positions are different, squatting style and emphasis is different, strength/power emphasis is different, use of tension and speed is different, equipment is different.... But yet, still all about moving a barbell. Amazing.

My Oly coach referred to it as bulldozers vs Ferraris.

One point of the difficulty of crossing over:

If I practice bench enough to put up respectable numbers for my bodyweight, I lose the shoulder mobility to correctly hit overhead positions.

It's not true that all Oly lifters eschew the bench, but it's pretty common for shoulder mobility reasons.
 
Olympic weightlifting from my perspective has a higher entry bar than say powerlifting or bodybuilding which is why I believe that Olympic weightlifting is less popular.

Americans

In America, there no exposure of Olympic Lifting when growing up.

Kids grow up playing American Football, Baseball and Basketball for the most part.

Other Counties

In countries like Russia, Bulgaria, China, etc., Olympic Lifting is like American Football; it's a popular sport.

The average person may not appreciate the biomechanics and technique of a clean and jerk without first knowing them.

The Average Person In America

The average person in American is clueless as to what Olympic Lifting is. They often don't know the difference between Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting.

Ironically, the majority who do train with weights refer themselves as Weightlifters. A Weightlifter is is another term for an Olympic Lifter.

With that said, it hard to have any appreciation for something you are have no understanding of.

...do you believe that Olympic weightlifting has any carryover to powerlifting or bodybuilding?

Carryover

There definitely a carryover of "Olympic Movements" to other sports like Powerlifting and Bodybuilding.

Olympic Lifting

The Olympic Lifts are Power Movements.

Some of the highest, if not the highest movement recorded are the Olympic Lifts/Movements.

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifters are the Poster Children for Conjugate Training; combining Maximum Strength and Power Training.

Chinese Olympic Lifter are no incorporating Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training into their program, as well.

The Westside Powerlifting Conjugate Protocol

The Westside Powerlifting Method incorporated Maximum Strength, Power (aka Speed) and Hypertrophy Training into it program.
-
Power Training employs the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift with load of 48 - 62% of 1 Repetition Max. This training percentage with Traditional Strength Exercise develop Power but not to the same extend as True Power Movement like the Olympic Movements.

Research (Dr John Garhammer) determined that over 4 times as much Power Output (measured in watts) was produce with Olympic Movement compared to moderate load with the Powerlifts.

Dr Michael Zourdos

Zourdos' (Powerlifter) research determined that a Conjugate Training Program that involved Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Strength Training in the same training cycle increased Maximum Strength.

Dr Brad Schoenfield

Schoenfield's research determined increasing muscle mass was best achieved with the following...

1) Mechanical Tension: Maximum Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: The Bodybuilding Pump.

3) Muscle Damage: Pushing to failure or near it. Additional research (Dr Jake Wilson) found that full range movements (like Squat) produce muscle damage that lead to an increase in muscle mass.

While there no direct research that indicates Olympic Movements is effective for Hypertrophy Training, it appears that some type of Power Training may assist.

Dr Jonathan Oliver

Oliver's research involved the use of Custer Set Training as a means of increasing muscle mass.

When Traditional Hypertrophy Training ONLY is used, Power and Maximum drop like a rock.

Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training demonstrated that muscle mass was increased along with Power and Maximum Strength

The underlying mechanism is Cluster Set Training specifically trained and developed the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; the largest muscle fiber.

Olympic weightlifting could still be considered a niche with the exception of the clean and press which has grown in popularity due to the likes of Crossfit and Supertotal.

CrossFit and Olympic Movcements

The Olympic Movements have increased due to CrossFit.

Unfortunately, many CrossFit instructors lack the knowledge to correctly teach these technical movements.

CrossFit often employed them for Metabolic Training, which it does.

However, when using the Olympic Movements for Metabolic Training come at the expense of developing poor technique, increasing the risk of injury and decreasing Power and Maximum.
 
Other Counties

In countries like Russia, Bulgaria, China, etc., Olympic Lifting is like American Football; it's a popular sport.
This one is not true in my country. Even though we quite successful, there is no public o -lifting gym, all belong to the government. No one have a clue about what it is. Ironically the o lift becomes popular in Vietnam because of Crossfit.
 
I strongly doubt that there are any competitive powerlifters who train the O-lifts to improve their powerlifting and the same would apply to Oly lifters training powerlifts.

Olympic Movement For Powerlifters

The number of Powerlifters who employ them are few.

The Issue

Few Powerlifter understand the carryover Olympic Movements have.

Secondly, very few have someone to teach them.

With that said, I am one of the few Powerlifters who grew up performing Olympic Movements. My first coach was an Olympic Lifter.

The foundation of our program was built on: Squats, Bench Presses, Deadlifts and Olympic Movements: Power Cleans, Snatch Cleans, Power Clean and Snatch High Pulls.

The No Deadlift, Deadlift

This article goes into how Olympic Pulls (Power Cleans) were effective for increasing my Deadlift, as well as some other that I have worked with.

My Deadlift went from 540 to 617 lbs in just under 3 years at a body weight of 208 lbs.

The foundation of this Deadlift Training approach is based on Bill Starr's setting an American Record Deadlift of 666 lb in 1966.

Louie Simmons and Dave Tate

Simmons' is an advocate of Power Cleans; having written and article about them and Bill Starr.

Dave Tate is a Strength Coach and a member of Westside Barbell. Tate has numerous training videos on Box Squat Training for Power, etc.

In a phone conversation years ago with Tate; Tate agree that Olympic Movements are a great Power Movement.

Tate's main issues were that due to fact that Olympic Movement are a technical movement, more time is required to lean them with a good coach. Unfortunately, it hard to find a good Olympic Lifting Coach.

instead Power (Speed Training) was quicker and easier to develop Power with moderate load in the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift. While Power is developed with Traditional Powerlifts, it is not to the same extent as Olympic Movements.

With that in mind, some great Power Movement that produce similar Power Outputs to Olympic Movement are...

1) Kettlebell Swings with Heavy Load or Moderate Load with a Band attached.

2) Trap Bar Jump Squats: These are essentially is an Olympic Jump Pull. It can be performed with Dumbbells.

3) Olympic High Pulls

 
Olympic Movement For Powerlifters

The number of Powerlifters who employ them are few.

The Issue

Few Powerlifter understand the carryover Olympic Movements have.

Secondly, very few have someone to teach them.

With that said, I am one of the few Powerlifters who grew up performing Olympic Movements. My first coach was an Olympic Lifter.

The foundation of our program was built on: Squats, Bench Presses, Deadlifts and Olympic Movements: Power Cleans, Snatch Cleans, Power Clean and Snatch High Pulls.

The No Deadlift, Deadlift

This article goes into how Olympic Pulls (Power Cleans) were effective for increasing my Deadlift, as well as some other that I have worked with.

My Deadlift went from 540 to 617 lbs in just under 3 years at a body weight of 208 lbs.

The foundation of this Deadlift Training approach is based on Bill Starr's setting an American Record Deadlift of 666 lb in 1966.

Louie Simmons and Dave Tate

Simmons' is an advocate of Power Cleans; having written and article about them and Bill Starr.

Dave Tate is a Strength Coach and a member of Westside Barbell. Tate has numerous training videos on Box Squat Training for Power, etc.

In a phone conversation years ago with Tate; Tate agree that Olympic Movements are a great Power Movement.

Tate's main issues were that due to fact that Olympic Movement are a technical movement, more time is required to lean them with a good coach. Unfortunately, it hard to find a good Olympic Lifting Coach.

instead Power (Speed Training) was quicker and easier to develop Power with moderate load in the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift. While Power is developed with Traditional Powerlifts, it is not to the same extent as Olympic Movements.

With that in mind, some great Power Movement that produce similar Power Outputs to Olympic Movement are...

1) Kettlebell Swings with Heavy Load or Moderate Load with a Band attached.

2) Trap Bar Jump Squats: These are essentially is an Olympic Jump Pull. It can be performed with Dumbbells.

3) Olympic High Pulls



This is a great writeup Kenny, thanks!

I find my heavy low bar back squats really help build by deadlift, and not the other way around. My squat is very hip dominant, so it looks like my deadlift. I do not really do any speed movements in my training except kbell swings and snatches (which I think do help). Your post makes me wonder if I should, something to talk to Brian Carroll about. I do agree that the deadlift is not as technical as other lifts (Olympic lifts for sure, and even less technical than the other 2 powerlifts). It is one of the beauties of the lift and why I assume Pavel chose it for PTTP (anyone can do it with minimum training). I do deadlifts once a week, but I keep the intensity and volume very low. I almost never go above 80% in normal training, unless I'm peaking. Once or twice a year, when I max, I am always amazed that I am able to improve the lift with such little training. It is also a very mental lift. Most days I dont have the will power to push through and go heavy. But I know I have it in me, on rare occasions, when I need grind it out.

Regards,

Eric
 
Americans

In America, there no exposure of Olympic Lifting when growing up.

Kids grow up playing American Football, Baseball and Basketball for the most part.

Other Counties

In countries like Russia, Bulgaria, China, etc., Olympic Lifting is like American Football; it's a popular sport.



The Average Person In America

The average person in American is clueless as to what Olympic Lifting is. They often don't know the difference between Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting.

Ironically, the majority who do train with weights refer themselves as Weightlifters. A Weightlifter is is another term for an Olympic Lifter.

With that said, it hard to have any appreciation for something you are have no understanding of.



Carryover

There definitely a carryover of "Olympic Movements" to other sports like Powerlifting and Bodybuilding.

Olympic Lifting

The Olympic Lifts are Power Movements.

Some of the highest, if not the highest movement recorded are the Olympic Lifts/Movements.

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifters are the Poster Children for Conjugate Training; combining Maximum Strength and Power Training.

Chinese Olympic Lifter are no incorporating Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training into their program, as well.

The Westside Powerlifting Conjugate Protocol

The Westside Powerlifting Method incorporated Maximum Strength, Power (aka Speed) and Hypertrophy Training into it program.
-
Power Training employs the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift with load of 48 - 62% of 1 Repetition Max. This training percentage with Traditional Strength Exercise develop Power but not to the same extend as True Power Movement like the Olympic Movements.

Research (Dr John Garhammer) determined that over 4 times as much Power Output (measured in watts) was produce with Olympic Movement compared to moderate load with the Powerlifts.

Dr Michael Zourdos

Zourdos' (Powerlifter) research determined that a Conjugate Training Program that involved Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Strength Training in the same training cycle increased Maximum Strength.

Dr Brad Schoenfield

Schoenfield's research determined increasing muscle mass was best achieved with the following...

1) Mechanical Tension: Maximum Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: The Bodybuilding Pump.

3) Muscle Damage: Pushing to failure or near it. Additional research (Dr Jake Wilson) found that full range movements (like Squat) produce muscle damage that lead to an increase in muscle mass.

While there no direct research that indicates Olympic Movements is effective for Hypertrophy Training, it appears that some type of Power Training may assist.

Dr Jonathan Oliver

Oliver's research involved the use of Custer Set Training as a means of increasing muscle mass.

When Traditional Hypertrophy Training ONLY is used, Power and Maximum drop like a rock.

Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training demonstrated that muscle mass was increased along with Power and Maximum Strength

The underlying mechanism is Cluster Set Training specifically trained and developed the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; the largest muscle fiber.



CrossFit and Olympic Movcements

The Olympic Movements have increased due to CrossFit.

Unfortunately, many CrossFit instructors lack the knowledge to correctly teach these technical movements.

CrossFit often employed them for Metabolic Training, which it does.

However, when using the Olympic Movements for Metabolic Training come at the expense of developing poor technique, increasing the risk of injury and decreasing Power and Maximum.


Thank you for the write-up, your knowledge is highly appreciated.

I have attempted to write another routine with the knowledge.

15 seconds rest between each cluster and 120 seconds rest between each set of clusters.

Day 1
Power Clean 3 x 2-2-1
Clean Pull 3 x 2-2-1
Bench Press 3 x 2-2-1
Weighted Pull-Up 3 x 5
Weighted Chin-Up 3 x 5

Day 2
Squat 3 x 2-2-1
Snatch 3 x 2-2-1
Overhead Press 3 x 2-2-1
Weighted Dips 3 x 5
Barbell Shrugs 3 x 5

I would do the workout as an A and B workout twice a week.

Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday.
 
I do not really do any speed movements in my training except kbell swings and snatches (which I think do help).

Speed Training

This term is usually incorrect. Simmons' (Westside Training) inappropriate termed Power Training as Speed Training. Now it appears to be cared in stone. So, I understand why you and just about everyone else uses it.

The issue is that Speed Training utilized different Training Percentage than Power Training; eliciting a different training effect.

Kettelebells and Snatches

Both are great movements for developing Power and Speed; dependent on the load employed.

With that in mind, Kettlebell Swings and Snatches are great movement in the development of Power and/or Speed.

Brian Carroll

Since I am unfamiliar with him or his training, I cannot comment.

I do deadlifts once a week, but I keep the intensity and volume very low. I almost never go above 80% in normal training, unless I'm peaking.

Infrequent Deadlift Training

Usually, training the Deadlift once a week is optimal.

As Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Bio-Mechnics/former Powerlifter) state in one of his research article on the Deadlift.

"The lower back is quickly and easily overtraining." That is one of the reason usually only train it once a week or every 10 -14 days.

Simmons On Deadlift

Simmons reinforced McLaughlin recommendation of cautiously training the Deadlift...

"The Deadlift take more than it give back."

In other words, with the Deadlift "less is more", as you noted.

With that in said, my Deadlift increased when I stopped Deadlifting for that reason.

I replaced it with...

Heavy Partial Good Mornings

Good Morning are essentially a Deadift with the bar on your back.

The Movement Pattern and Strength Curve are the same.

I combined Heavy Good Morning with Hang Pull Power Cleans

The only time I Deadlift is at meets.

Phil Rivera

Phil increased his Deadlift using the same program; Heavy Good Morning and Power Cleans.

However, in a 4 week training cycle, Phil would Deadlift to to keep a feel for it and to see how he was doing. Phil increased his Deadlift 40 lbs.

Back Raises

This is a Good Morning performed on a bench in from a 45 degree to 90 Degree angle.

One of the great 132 lb Deadlifter in the 1970's was Byron Benoit. Benoit best Deadlift was 520 lbs at 132 lbs.

Bryon's Deadlift Training was Back Extension; rarely any Deadlift Training.

Training Effect Differences of Good Morning, 45 Degree and 90 Degree Back Raises

1) Good Mornings: These place the workload on the bottom position of the movement.

If you need to increase coming off the floor, Good Morning will get you there.

2) 45 Degree Back Raise: The overload occurs in the mid range. The start and finish are much easier.

If you need to increase strength in the knee area of the Deadlift; 45 Degree are one of the keys.

3 90 Degree Back Raise: The overload is at the top end of the movement.

If you need more top end strength on the Deadlift, this works.

It is also a very mental lift.

Definitely

The Deadlift is definitely more of a mental lift.

Years ago, when I in a Deadlift Training Session, I could not break the weight off the floor.

The next day I came back pissed off an did 4 reps with the weight. It was a head not a physical issue.
 
Squat 3 x 2-2-1
Snatch 3 x 2-2-1
Overhead Press 3 x 2-2-1
Weighted Dips 3 x 5
Barbell Shrugs 3 x 5

Power Training

The general rule is that you need to perform a Power Movement, like the Snatch, as the first exercise in your training when you are fresh.
 
Thank you for the write-up, your knowledge is highly appreciated.

I have attempted to write another routine with the knowledge.

15 seconds rest between each cluster and 120 seconds rest between each set of clusters.

Day 1
Power Clean 3 x 2-2-1
Clean Pull 3 x 2-2-1
Bench Press 3 x 2-2-1
Weighted Pull-Up 3 x 5
Weighted Chin-Up 3 x 5

Day 2
Squat 3 x 2-2-1
Snatch 3 x 2-2-1
Overhead Press 3 x 2-2-1
Weighted Dips 3 x 5
Barbell Shrugs 3 x 5

I would do the workout as an A and B workout twice a week.

Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday.


No offense intended, can you elaborate on why you want to make your own program from scratch?

As others have pointed out, your custom routines are making some basic errors in programming (e.g. doing quicklifts after grind squats).

I might be a better experience, with better gains, to just use one of the well-known and proven programs that are structured holistically. Whether that's a pure strength program like "Starting Strength", or one of the intro Oly lifting programs from Greg Everett's books....read the book, follow the program, and you'll learn a lot more about efficient training.

You can always add a light amount (emphasis on light amount) of bodybuilding finishers to either of those programs without gimping your results.
 
No offense intended, can you elaborate on why you want to make your own program from scratch?

As others have pointed out, your custom routines are making some basic errors in programming (e.g. doing quicklifts after grind squats).

I might be a better experience, with better gains, to just use one of the well-known and proven programs that are structured holistically. Whether that's a pure strength program like "Starting Strength", or one of the intro Oly lifting programs from Greg Everett's books....read the book, follow the program, and you'll learn a lot more about efficient training.

You can always add a light amount (emphasis on light amount) of bodybuilding finishers to either of those programs without gimping your results.

Thank you for the response.

I do mixed martial arts training almost everyday which involves a lot of ground and sprawling movements.

I also do weighted bodyweight exercises or rings work training holds and levers.
Could I add them to this type of routine?


I will begin reading one of the books to develop a knowledge of writing programs.
 
Power Training

The general rule is that you need to perform a Power Movement, like the Snatch, as the first exercise in your training when you are fresh.

Thank you.

I double checked the spreadsheet I wrote and I did previously write the snatch before the squat.

Apologies, I copied it wrong.
 
Thank you for the response.

I do mixed martial arts training almost everyday which involves a lot of ground and sprawling movements.

I also do weighted bodyweight exercises or rings work training holds and levers.
Could I add them to this type of routine?


I will begin reading one of the books to develop a knowledge of writing programs.

Catalyst athletics has a good track record of creating competitive Olympic lifters.

I haven't tried their beginner program, but I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it to someone. Everett may be opinionated, but he's thoughtful in his programming.

That being said...

I don't think that kind of program is going to translate into making you a better MMA fighter unless you're completely untrained.
 
Catalyst athletics has a good track record of creating competitive Olympic lifters.

I haven't tried their beginner program, but I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it to someone. Everett may be opinionated, but he's thoughtful in his programming.

That being said...

I don't think that kind of program is going to translate into making you a better MMA fighter unless you're completely untrained.


My only question is, where is the chest training? Could I add incline barbell bench press and weighted dips at the end of each workout?
 
My only question is, where is the chest training? Could I add incline barbell bench press and weighted dips at the end of each workout?


Bench press is not a competition lift.

Accessory chest work, if any, that is needed to maintain shoulder girdle health will be highly individual and not generically programmed.

And ultra big meaty pecs are just going to add bodyweight and bump up your weight class but not necessarily make you better at weightlifting.

If you want chest work for aesthetic reasons, that's your choice, but don't expect an Olympic lifting coach or program to care about aesthetic goals.

Per the description:

"Ab work should be done every training day, along with any supplemental work, e.g. back extensions, upper body beach work, etc. that you want to do."

P.S. I've been doing Olympic weightlifting for 7 years. I don't bench. I get plenty of upper pec work from overhead work, and do bodyweight chest work to maintain functional balance.
 
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My only question is, where is the chest training? Could I add incline barbell bench press and weighted dips at the end of each workout?

Heavy bench presses or similar can make your chest and front deltoids quite tight, which will do you no favours when it comes to overhead work such as the snatch. If you do decide to bench, make sure you stretch afterwards and do plenty of mobility work on your shoulders. I'd recommend shoulder dislocates with a stick or PVC pipe.

I'd stick to the program as written for a while at least and then, once you've developed some proficiency with the movements and are able to recover sufficiently between sessions, you can start looking at adding some additional chest work if you want.
 
Heavy bench presses or similar can make your chest and front deltoids quite tight, which will do you no favours when it comes to overhead work such as the snatch. If you do decide to bench, make sure you stretch afterwards and do plenty of mobility work on your shoulders. I'd recommend shoulder dislocates with a stick or PVC pipe.


This doesn't affect all lifters, but it's common, and affects me.

I haven't benched in 7-8 years.

Bodyweight chest exercises, gymnastic rings, and resistance bands don't have the same negative impact on me, so that's what I do for horizontal pressing and chest adduction.
 
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