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Barbell Barbell Cycle Selection

What Format Shall I take up for my next cycle for strength?

  • Daily Dose Deadlifts + Soju & Tuba

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Power to the People

    Votes: 4 25.0%

  • Reload

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Q&D + Minimalist deadlifts

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Something else? Write it in

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .
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Adachi

Adachi

Level 7 Valued Member
I'm eyeballing another strength cycle.
Due to time constraints, I do a lot more planning, to try and strategize for getting the most out of very limited training time per week.
I am considering a barbell cycle utilizing a Deadlift and Floor press.

Cycle design Goals, Constraints & Parameters:
  • about me
    • 5'10"
    • 245 lbs.
    • last max DL 365 lbs
    • last max strict press 40kg 2L 3R
    • can swing 40kg for sets of 10 reps (can do10x10)
    • can getup with 40kg for singles (not for 10/10 (3-5 reps))
    • Recently ran snatches in parallel with barbell, and my loading was too high.
  • Goals
    • seeking Low Time Investment
    • seeking net emphasis on strength gains
  • equipment
    • barbell
    • ~400lbs bumper plates, 2.5 lbs. plates smallest increment.
    • thin foam interlocking pads.~1/2 Inch. mostly for standing or lying on.
    • Spring collars - I don't trust for tipping the bar up on end.
    • no rack, stands, supports, etc.
  • exercise selection
    • deadlift
    • floor press
My thoughts and questions:
Having listed these things, I've sampled the floor press and a bridged floor press.

Is there a significant difference to be had between the two variations, or not?

I have done 1 cycle of daily dose deadlifts in the past and I got stronger. as a newbie (I'm not too experienced with Barbell) would I apparently be leaving gains on the table?

Power to the People explains cycling a bit, but it doesn't exactly outline exactly how. so, that's something I'd have to take a look at and decide about ahead of time. But, I'd probably tend toward the 5,3,2 reps format with a single weight per session. what kind of sharper variation might be a piece of low-hanging fruit cycling-wise to use in that format?

Reload would be a special case for me. I'd likely be running a 2x Week Light/heavy alternation if I could fit it in. a single session might be a bit long, to fit into the afternoon/nightly routine with the kids.

I recently found myself doing too much running a low volume Q&D snatch practice in parallel, and daily dose deadlift/pttp free style 2-a-day training, <10 min. / session 2x a day. so I cut that cycle short as it continued to drain me for my practice.
 
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Steve A said:
Adachi, what do you think are appropriate progression methods for you?
Click to expand...
I am not fluent in weight training.
I guess that I should ask, as I am new to training lingo.
what would be an example of a progression method that one might select as best for oneself?

I usually just try to graduate from bell to bell. and, so far I've only utilized some linear cycling on the barbell or step loading like daily dose deadlifts.

I've only executed a handful of barbell cycles.
  • daily dose deadlifts,
  • Pttp-like cycle substituting Kettlebell presses, for the side press. (Linear cycle)
  • a linear cycle of Zercher squats.
  • an attempt to run two parallel practices snatch & deadlift daily. AM & PM a la strength shortcuts. (step cycle a la daily dose deadlifts)
 
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Progression methods - how the stress of the program is manipulated. Examples of methods of progression:

Linear. Add a little weight on a pre-planned basis. Relative beginners can add a little weight every time, even if feeling like they are working near their limits.

Double progression. Used with rep ranges. Start at the low end, add a rep each time until a target rep count is reached, then add weight and drop reps.

Cycles. Usually pre-planned. Uses pre-planned percentages of a max, e.g., week 1 60% x 8, week 3 70% x 5, week 5 80% x 5. Generally not suitable for relative beginners as their maxes are increasing weekly. Very easy to find such examples for powerlifting. Several written by Pavel on this site. Reload is a good example.

Mini-cycles. Similar to cycles, but on a shorter time frame, typical is 3 - 4 weeks. 5/3/1 and the Tactical Barbell programs are examples of this.

Volume progressions. Weight is held constant, but an additional rep, or an additional set, is added on a regular basis. Used by Hepburn, John Davis, and adapted by a few current trainers.

Density. More reps/sets in a pre-determined time.

Volume variability. Weights used remain fixed for a cycle (there may be multiple levels of weight) and the volume varies from session to session in some pre-planned way. Examples include PlanStrong, BuiltStrong.

Fixed load. Yes, there have been and are lifters who will deliberately use a set top weight for periods up to a year. These are typically fairly heavy and used by pretty experienced lifters.

Movement variability. Example is max effort work in conjugate systems.

The above is not a complete listing (I can think of a few more ), because I am lazy and bored with listing them, and a complete listing wouldn't add much.

But here is where it gets more specific to you. You have written down some observations which are relevant to the rates at which you can progress, and are relevant to when you might start getting into trouble. Figuring out which progression methods are thus suitable for you should narrow program selection or simplify program design for that times when you make up your own. And this will be true for the rest of your lifting life.

The goal is to select the progression method(s) that allow the most rapid progress over an extended period. As you get stronger, and older, those change. What your recovery allows you to do at any time may also influence options.

So...what do you think are appropriate progression schemes for you? Which are inappropriate, and why?

(I will give you my suggestion later. And I'd vote for the floor press over the bridging floor press.)
 
Adachi said:
I'm eyeballing another strength cycle.
Due to time constraints, I do a lot more planning, to try and strategize for getting the most out of very limited training time per week.
Click to expand...
Let's start with knowing your time constraints - that will help determine which programs might work best for you.

watchnerd said:
PlanStrong DL program
Click to expand...
Because of their complex nature - lots of variability in both volume and intensity - I've found them hard to adhere to. They're great, but OTOH, I like having a program with a similar structure week to week, just for the ease of scheduling the rest of my life around it. My loss, no doubt, but that's a price I'm usually to pay. E.g., I currently do one "big" day for each of the three powerlifts every week. My default is Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, but if I need, I go Tue/Thu/Sat, or Mon/Thu/Sat, or if things get really crazy, sometimes Wed/Fri/Sun and then Tue/Thu/Sat the following week and back to Mon/Wed/Sat the week after. I found it tough to adapt a PS program in this way.

So when I hear "time constraints," I generally don't go with PS as a first choice.

Adachi said:
I am considering a barbell cycle utilizing a Deadlift and Floor press.
Click to expand...

My instinct would be to FP then DL 3 days a week, allowing you to juggle the days as I suggested. On other days, swings as time allows.

-S-
 
Adachi said:
Power to the People explains cycling a bit, but it doesn't exactly outline exactly how. so, that's something I'd have to take a look at and decide about ahead of time. But, I'd probably tend toward the 5,3,2 reps format with a single weight per session. what kind of sharper variation might be a piece of low-hanging fruit cycling-wise to use in that format?
Click to expand...
There was someone (sorry forget who) who did PTTP with different cycles in their SF log. The one that stood out was using step progression. Basically instead of adding weight every session, they did it every 3-5 sessions. They had a chart and everything. Worked well for them. That is something to consider if you are time limited and can commit to high frequency.
Steve Freides said:
Because of their complex nature - lots of variability in both volume and intensity - I've found them hard to adhere to.
Click to expand...
This is why I've never even attempted the free PS plans that have been posted. The logistics of scheduling gym time that can be anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours in a near random fashion is a big hurdle. Definitely something to try next time we get a pandemic type shutdown where I find myself with hours of free time to fill though.
 
Steve Freides said:
Let's start with knowing your time constraints - that will help determine which programs might work best for you.
Click to expand...
I can supplement swings during my lunch hour as I've been in a habit of stowing my 24kg bell under my desk for Q&D during my lunch hour currently. I guess I could stow my 32 or 40 instead.

My barbell is in the garage and I practice after I get home . Door to door, soup to nuts, from stepping into the garage to coming back into the house... while the kids are alone inside...

M-F 10-20 minutes/day .
30 minutes is possible, but improbable.

Sat Sun : 30 min. - 1 hour.
Some weekends. Not others.
Weekends are less reliable against reserve unit schedule, and family business.
 
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Steve Freides said:
Because of their complex nature - lots of variability in both volume and intensity - I've found them hard to adhere to. They're great, but OTOH, I like having a program with a similar structure week to week, just for the ease of scheduling the rest of my life around it. My loss, no doubt, but that's a price I'm usually to pay. E.g., I currently do one "big" day for each of the three powerlifts every week. My default is Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, but if I need, I go Tue/Thu/Sat, or Mon/Thu/Sat, or if things get really crazy, sometimes Wed/Fri/Sun and then Tue/Thu/Sat the following week and back to Mon/Wed/Sat the week after. I found it tough to adapt a PS program in this way.
Click to expand...

I'll admit it was a little intimidating when my PlanStrong DL spreadsheet had 11 sets on a few days. ;)
 
With 10-20 minutes, PTTP is my choice.

Bridge floor presses turn the lift into a decline position and you can utilize more leg drive, both of which increase the weight you can press.

Next step, find a Barbell 101 class as it will both help dial in your form on all these lifts, and provide you a new PTTP template and progression.
 
Something I’ve been experimenting with for the last few weeks has been using a wave cycle from Deadlift Dynamite combined with ideas from this article:

www.strongfirst.com

The Top Set Method: A Stress Free Strength Routine | StrongFirst

I can make great, steady progress using the Top Set Method. If you’re burnt out, stressed, or short on sleep, this program is designed for you.
www.strongfirst.com

I’ve been using these for my TBDL plugged into an ETK+ format as I train for another ACFT.

I’m finding it easy to recover from, easy to combine with kettlebell ballistics on other days, and I feel like my strength is increasing.
 
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Marty said:
Something I’ve been experimenting with for the last few weeks has been using a wave cycle from Deadlift Dynamite combined with ideas from this article:

www.strongfirst.com

The Top Set Method: A Stress Free Strength Routine | StrongFirst

I can make great, steady progress using the Top Set Method. If you’re burnt out, stressed, or short on sleep, this program is designed for you.
www.strongfirst.com

I’ve been using these for my TBDL plugged into an ETK+ format as I train for another ACFT.

I’m finding it easy to recover from, easy to combine with kettlebell ballistics on other days, and I feel like my strength is increasing.
Click to expand...
Deadlift Dynamite/Top Set method is driving a lot of my thinking for some upcoming barbell cycles since I'll have access to barbells during an upcoming mobilization with the Army Reserve.
 
I think you're time constraints are really narrow. Probably best to rotate upper and lower body days. That said, I've been doing a ladder progression for bench press and front squat that's 9-17 minutes per lift that I've been liking.
  1. 60%/2-3-5 [20"] x4 [1']
  2. 65%/2-3-5 [20"] x3 [2']
  3. 70%/AMAP
  4. 75%/1-2-3 [20"] x4 [3']
  5. 80%/1-2-3 [20"] x3 [4']
  6. 85%/AMAP
I've been doing each lift twice per week.
 
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Steve A said:
So...what do you think are appropriate progression schemes for you? Which are inappropriate, and why?
Click to expand...
I don't know enough to choose in an educated way between the various progression methods you listed. But I have some experience to inform me.
  • Daily dose deadlifts took me from 315 to 365.
  • A zercher linear cycle took me from an easy 135 to a difficult 215 and made my thighs grow like the were undertrained.
  • I tolerated S&S well.
  • I've been able to adhere to Q&D for months at a time.
Justin_M said:
Probably best to rotate upper and lower body days.
Click to expand...
Fascinating.

Maybe assume 3 days a week per lift for 10 reps a day.

For deadlift...
At 10 lbs increase per day across 6 weeks that's 180 lbs.
Could take that from 225 to 305.

For press...
At 5 lbs increase per session across 6 weeks that's 90 lbs. I can learn the lift starting at 135, and go up to 225 which would be approaching body weight.

Could also do 4x week.
Heavy/light
deadlift/press.

Peg the light day at 65% and ramp the heavy days from 70% to 90% across 6 weeks or so.

Just spit balling here
 
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Adachi said:
I don't know enough to choose in an educated way between the various progression methods you listed. But I have some experience to inform me.
  • Daily dose deadlifts took me from 315 to 365.
  • A zercher linear cycle took me from an easy 135 to a difficult 215 and made my thighs grow like the were undertrained.
Click to expand...

Your pondering it puts you ahead of most. The first step on the path from asking "which fish should I buy" to being able to choose which fish might be acceptable. There will always be many to suggest a fish to us. I will try to suggest how you might narrow the field by writing out how I'd approach it. Some details I infer about you will be wrong, I am not you, so you need to at least mentally correct my mistakes.

The over-riding idea is to choose progression methods that will allow you to make the fastest sustainable progress. For anybody, if they can sustain it, linear progression is the fastest. You gave an example with the Zercher. So could you do the Zercher again, starting at 215, or maybe backing off to 195, add 5 (or 10) lbs a week until you hit 295? Could you do the DL, starting at 365, or maybe backing off to 335, and add 5 (or 10) lbs a week for 3 months? My guess is that you might be able, with really good recovery practices, but it might be rough. It would probably work of a while on your floor press, but you want the fastest progression that will work with both lifts you want to do. So I'm going to say linear is probably not the best way for you.

Next up is double progression. This is a slower way, it can be a form of mini-cycling depending on how it is done. I think it would be harsh to do it with your DL, and overly slow on your floor press.

Cycles. This would work for both your lifts. It does not take much to set up so it is almost customized for each lift. It is going to be faster than all the options I listed below it at your stage.

Mini-cycles would work for you, but wait until you are stronger and you need more frequent backoffs. Right now they would be slower.

Volume progressions tend to be pretty slow. Put that off until you know your progress is slow and maybe you need to the boundaries.

Density. You aren't going to do that with the DL, so no need to think further on this one.

Volume variability could work but it would mean slower progress on your floor press, and in any case time constraints make this one impractical for you now.

Fixed load is really slow - later. You aren't set up for movement variation, so throw that out.

This leads me to think that a pre-planned cycle would be closest to a safe bet for you. It is possible you could make slightly faster progress on the options before it, but they have the tradeoff risk of being more likely to have you hit a wall.

You've got Reload. The real gem in Reload is the cycle design. Fabio and Pavel really worked out and tested how to have the best chance of success. So from my perspective, a cycle (general) is the best option for you, and Reload (specific) because it is tested and worked out, is a high percentage shot for you.

The workout examples in Reload are just examples, don't get hung up on them. So here is my fish offering. Do the pre-cycle tests in Reload, and set up your week this way. Day 1 floor press heavy, Day 2 deadlift light, Day 3 no barbell, Day 4 floor press light, Day 5 deadlift heavy, then two days off. Trying to give you the most recovery after DLs throughout, but you may see a better way to do that.
 
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