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Barbell Barbell Form Check

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jca17

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Hey everyone, I'm a a little over a month into Greyskull LP.
I'm really enjoying (if you can describe higher rep squatting with the term) the amrap sets.
Since this is the first program I've ever run with the back squat, I'd like to get a form check.
I have something like 6-7 months of Zercher Squat training experience since last January, and I started this program late April.

@Anna C I'm preparing for SFL in November. I figured since I'm building some foundational squat strength and had to start somewhat light, I might as well work strength in a deeper range of motion than is required (also influenced by reading some of Marty Gallagher's suggestions). Anyways, for a somewhat deep high bar squat, what should I be working on (other than throwing some more weight on that bar ;)

I may post some other lifts soon, too.
 
Deadlift from May 16:


Deadlift from May 23:


I was pretty happy to hit all the reps with double overhand grip both of those sessions.

However, this week (which I didn't film), I could only get 3 reps with double overhand with 250 pounds on the bar, and then I did 2 with right hand pronated, followed by 2 more with left hand pronated. I had missed a lot of sleep in the 5 days before deadlifting. I could feel during warmups that deadlift was going to be hard that day, which is why I only made a 5 pound jump in weight (I'm increasing by 10 pounds in deadlift when I hit 8 or more reps, for squat I'm increasing 5 pounds every session and am fine with staying in 10-12 rep range since my squat and hypertrophy goals have been doing fine with that (plus, I'm not as concerned about the squat part of SFL certification). Honestly, upper body is going to be tough. If I have to retest, I don't think it will be from squat or deadlift. I'm weighing about 170 pounds right now, expecting to come in at about 180 by November.
 
@jca17, a little background, please - age, weight, injury history, sports history.

SQ: You are giving up you lumbar a little on your squats, at the bottom. It's great to get that deep but not great to lose your lumbar. It doesn't look like you're trying to open your hips as you descend - see if you can add that cue and see if it helps. You need to think about squatting between your legs - if you can figure it out, your butt won't be as far back, and you'll be able to keep your back flatter, deeper.

DL: You need some weight on the bar, and you need to think about a different grip, IMHO. You look like you're holding the bar in the hooks of your fingers - grip the heck out of the bar, which will make your grip more secure as you bring the bar into the palm of your hands more. Get your 250 and even more with a double overhand grip, then switch to an over/under grip or learn the hook grip.

Basically, you're doing some nice lifting, just a few things to make it better and, well, it'll be better. :)

-S-
 
I agree with @Steve Freides - nice lifting! I think you'll be in great shape for SFL.

Squat, yes I see some lumbar flexion as well, at the bottom. My suggestion would be a little different -- I would say hips back a little further, abs tighter (always tighter), don't go quite so deep; maybe an inch or 1.5 inches less, don't pause at the bottom (stay tight and reverse/rebound off the tension at the bottom). My understanding of what happens when you go too deep, as described in the Starting Strength model for the low bar squat but I think still applicable, is that the hamstrings and adductors relax, which means you can't maintain positional control of the pelvis, causing the lumbar movement. So, consider it as a counter to the reasons you mention to go deeper. Those reasons sound logical, but personally I would save the deep squat for the goblet squat and mobility, and take the edge off the depth when working on strength.

Deadlift looks really nice! Your starting and ending positions look good, and the lift itself looks good to me. The only thing I would change is your upper back. SFL would cue "more lats". Kind of like shoulder packing. Starting Strength would cue "big chest" or rotate your sternum up through your arms. More or less the same result -- for you this would be some movement just before you lift, part of getting tight, taking the slack out of the bar and setting your upper back.

I had missed a lot of sleep in the 5 days before deadlifting.

I've noticed this pattern myself. Good sleep = strong deadlift. Poor sleep = "Who snuck an extra 30 lb on this bar??" ;)
 
@Anna C, I don't agree with the model. One needs to learn to get deep without relinquishing tightness in the hamstrings or anywhere else. A goblet squat is a fine place to learn that - get deep by pulling yourself slowly and under complete control, _pulling_ yourself into the hole. Once there, experience what it's like to give up tightness - exhale, relax, then repressurize and come back up.

By pulling ourselves into the hole, we eliminate, by definition, relaxing anything at the bottom. By relaxing at the bottom, we are working on improving our hamstring and hip range of motion.

@jca17, it would be helpful to see you do a goblet squat - use whatever weight you feel lets you perform the movement with the most control.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides, I agree with everything you said there. I totally agree that a goblet squat is the way to do that.
 
Thank you, @Anna C. My vote for a squat progression is from goblet squat to a light, high-bar, barbell squat because one can keep the same feeling as in the goblet squat, and even practice it the same way - pull down, looking for space all the way down and especially at the bottom, pry, exhale, explore and enjoy the bottom position, and then repressurize and come back up. A rough guideline for a weight might be what one can manage in a two-kettlebell front squat and then a little more. For me, that would be > 1/2 bw up to around bw.

And there are many steps one could add between: goblet squat, 1 kb FSQ, 2 kb FSQ, barbell FSQ, and then barbell HBBS.

My main teaching point here is that one can bring almost all of the good things of a paused, prying goblet squat to a HBBS, and now one has made the transition to squatting with a bar on one's back and is ready to begin another phase of squatting.

If I may continue my rant here: we teach rank beginners to deadlift a kettlebell, and from there, we progress to other things, typically a faster version of the same pattern in the swing, or a heavier version of the same pattern with a barbell. With the squat, the goblet squat is our starting point. The difference between squatting and deadlifting, in the context of this conversation, is that squatting is more technical, and most trainees, IMHO, need to spend longer and go through more intermediate steps transitioning from the first squat we teach them to a powerlifting squat; for the deadlift, the transition is simpler, and usually no steps in between are usually necessary.

-S-
 
light, high-bar, barbell squat because one can keep the same feeling as in the goblet squat, and even practice it the same way - pull down, looking for space all the way down and especially at the bottom, pry, exhale, explore and enjoy the bottom position, and then repressurize and come back up.

We did what you are describing there at my SFL cert, and I must say I really wasn't a fan of it. While I love to do this with light goblet squats, it did NOT feel good to me doing it with a lightly loaded barbell to my pelvis, low back, or anything else. It particularly seemed to irritate what I think is my SI joints.

My preference is to make a distinction between two types of squats and not teach them as a continuum. I group them this way:

Movement/mobility squat
  • bodyweight mobility squat, yoga garland pose, cossack mobility squat; light kettlebell goblet squat for warm-up and prying
  • breathing
  • relaxing at the bottom
  • as deep as possible
  • back straight and torso mostly vertical
Strength squat
  • any barbell squat, kettlebell front squat or heavy goblet squat, pistol squat, bodyweight "air squats" (i.e. fast, repetitive)
  • not breathing during the squat, especially at the bottom - using the valsalva or otherwise maintaining intra-abdominal pressure
  • maintaining tension and not relaxing anything at the bottom
  • not as deep as possible (but always below parallel)
  • back straight but torso not necesssarily vertical; angled to facilitate weight balanced over midfoot
In this distinction I suppose I'm combining a lot of what I've learned from various sources, but to my knowledge it's not a way that anyone else defines them.
 
@Anna C, we will have to agree to disagree. Without getting into who said what when, I learned what I described above both within and outside of StrongFirst. It's an approach of long standing that has produced excellent results for both average trainees and world-class squatters.

Sending you a PM to continue the conversation.

-S-
 
I agree with @Anna C that it's better to keep the mobility and the strength squats separate. I would limit the depth a bit and and use the stretch reflex. But of course, it's a good idea to do stretching squats, but do them separately, where the aim of the squats is only to improve mobility and wellbeing and not train your strength.

When it comes to the choice of the squat for the mobility work I agree more with @Steve Freides . I really like how the barbell back squat feels for it, and the weight on the back seems to get me in a better position and gives me a better stretch.

When it comes to the deadlift and the grip, even if the deadlift builds the grip well, I prefer to concentrate on the lifting and use the strongest grip I can. That means I use mixed grip most of the time, switching hands between every set. Sometimes, I even use lifting grips.
 
Thank you all for the feedback so far.
Here's a post on background as Steve requested:

Background: I'm 29, 6'0", 170lbs. I work a desk job (computer programmer)
Injuries:
I'm recovering from a left shoulder injury from an OCR in November. I think it was a subluxation, but I'm not sure. I also had a subluxation of that same shoulder back in the summer of 2014. That shoulder is feeling good now and I just started military pressing a barbell again this week.

No troublesome lower body issues. I found a few weeks ago that my lower abdominal, just below and to the right of the belly button, doesn't like when I over pressurize my breath while wedging for a conventional deadlift. I've focused more on bracing (core contracted in all directions: forward, back, out, in, if that makes sense) since one that kind of bugged me 3 weeks ago, nothing else like it sense, nor was anything like it before. I'm no chalking it up as an injury since it was very temporary and hasn't happened since, but I am being more mindful of how I pressurize air and coordinate that with my bracing when I'm deep in a hinge.

Training history:
No sports in high school (graduated at 6' tall, 135lbs)
Mark Verstegen's "Core Performance", Michael Boyle type stuff from 2012-2014 with adjustable dumbells at home
Kettlebells: pressing program from an SFG2 for a while, then S&S off and on for 2 years (late 2014 to late 2016).

PTTP: Deadlift and bench - 3 months to start 2017 (first barbell program)
Faleev 5x5 (pavel's version) - 3 months in 2017 (conventional dl, Zercher squat, bench press)
SF barbell course (only did a few reps of squats because left shoulder irritated, did none in future programming due to lack of squat rack access until this year)
S&S + ocr training for the second half of 2017

Faleev 5x5 (more like original version, starting with sets of 8) : sumo deadlift (finished with 5x5 @285 pounds), zercher squat, bench press

Greyskull LP: Since late April: conventional DL, hi bar backsquat (first time backsquatting), military press (just phased in from rehab exercises), bench press.
 
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@Steve Freides
You need to think about squatting between your legs - if you can figure it out, your butt won't be as far back, and you'll be able to keep your back flatter, deeper.

I've been experimenting with the groove as I pull myself down. I was thinking further back on the "clock" for this session, with more upper body lean.

Here's some goblet squats from just now:


I think I see the same thing you're talking about where my hips start to go under.

Another two reps after watching those. Are these better, or is the descent too vertical?



You look like you're holding the bar in the hooks of your fingers

This is interesting, because this cycle I'm specifically focusing on gripping the bar deeper in my hands, and I'm definitely weaker there. It used to be an inch further down my fingers, and that grip was strong and getting stronger before I realized its different from what I see others do. When I noticed I do this, it reminded me of a video I saw of Russel Orhii, where his coach mentions how low in his fingers he grips his deadlifts, but it works for him. I'm not justifying my bad technique with an elite athlete example, just noticing a similar thing haha.
So in these videos, the first segment of my finger, just off my hand, is bearing the load of the bar. Do I want to actually have my callous line under the bar? (My grip is stronger then the bar rests in the crease between first and second segment of fingers almost how I swing a kettlebell, I probably have larger than average hands).

I'm not letting double overhand limit by deadlift, it just happened on that week of my progression I was able to hit them all. I will keep adding 10 pounds a week. I'll keep this in mind and try to grip even deeper, and I felt like this past week was my last "double overhand" session, so my top set will be with mixed grip from here on out.

You need some weight on the bar

Dang, is that a suggestion or a burn? :D I'm lifting 89% of my conventional DL tested max from last summer at sf barbell course and I'm just getting going this cycle. Probably around 75-78% of current predicted max and still early on a long linear progression. But I hear ya :)
 
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@Anna C
The only thing I would change is your upper back. SFL would cue "more lats". Kind of like shoulder packing. Starting Strength would cue "big chest" or rotate your sternum up through your arms. More or less the same result -- for you this would be some movement just before you lift, part of getting tight, taking the slack out of the bar and setting your upper back.

I'll keep this in mind! I was showing a friend my deadlift video and she pointed out my upper back as well.

For the squat, I definitely don't want to go deeper than is safe for my current ability, but if possible I'd like to learn to maintain the tension necessary to keep my pelvis deep, especially when I'm not already strong in the squat so the weights involved won't be as drastically below training weight. I want to run through at least one cycle with the light pause to get used to tension deep in the hole, inspired a bit by Marty Gallagher's writings on gaining squat competence. Since I'm not actually powerlifting, I don't mind having squat be very quad dominant even if it limits weight.

As for lumbar, I haven't worked with my PT in a while, so it's also something I could work on with him. I used to get butt wink pretty high up, and he was able to get me way deeper. Mostly through core bracing strategy and IAP, whereas before I thought it was caused by hamstrings, or just unchangeable hip socket structure (which for some people eventually will come into play).

In the meantime, I'll take off some depth in the next one to see if that gets rid of the lumbar issue.
 
Goblet squat looks pretty good. Try to be even slower and more controlled in your descent, really pull yourself down as if someone was pulling you up and you had to resist that in addition to pulling yourself down. Keep that all the way from top to bottom. Make space in your spine and in your hips. Pull your thighs out of your hip sockets. Pull your spine out of your pelvis.

-S-
 
Your squat is actually pretty good for a high bar, train track, toes forward squat. Yes, it’s too deep, yes you’d be better off cutting depth to parallel so your hamstrings don’t slack, and yes it’s questionable at best to be doing AMRAP sets with 145lbs, but you can take that up with the designer of the GSLP. For the record, those AMRAP sets do zero for you as a rank novice because as you’ve seen, they radically slow putting weight on the bar which is far more important for hypertrophy than volume at 145lbs. No offense.

When you go that deep, your hamstrings are shortened to slack and there’s nothing you can do about it. Cutting off the movement at parallel keeps them taut and capable of assisting the movement.

Widen your stance 2 inches at the heels, turn your toes out 30 degrees. Take a big breath and hold, contracting all your trunk musculature forcefully. Shove your knees out and hold them throughout the movement. Knees out aligned with toes plus cutting depth to just below parallel as defined by your hip crease dropping below the top of your patella will create taut hamstrings that can control your pelvis as well as space between your femur and your ASIS, keeping your pelvis rigid. Currently, your femur is collecting all the soft tissue anterior to the hip and smushing it. This combined with your unavoidably slack hamstrings is allowing your pelvis to move from “very slightly over-extended” to “neutral or very slight flexion”. Not injurious and not in need of “correctives” beyond those I mentioned above.

Best to you.
 
you’d be better off cutting depth to parallel so your hamstrings don’t slack
Those two things are certainly not mutually exclusive. I would never encourage a new squatter to stop just below parallel. Learn to perform the movement well and with a full range of motion by improving hip and hamstring mobility.

-S-
 
Closed knee angle coupled with open back angle move the origin and insertion points of the hamstrings as close together as is possible in a standing posture. IE - the hamstrings are already as short as they can get without lying down.

Just to make sure jca17 is following: your hamstrings attach to the back of your tibia (shin bone) on the upper rear part of it. They “originate”, or start from the very bottom point of your pelvis on the ischial tuberosity which is the loopy part below where your femur fits in. When you squat high-bar, front, or Goblet style (from least to most effect) the following things have to happen in order for the load to stay in balance over the middle of your foot: your torso will be more upright. We call that the “back angle” and it is “open”. Your knees must travel further forward, and the “knee angle” - between shin and femur - must be smaller or “more closed”. The upright back keeps your ischial tuberosities from moving aft which means the hamstrings that are attached to them are not being stretched much on the way down. Meanwhile your closing knee angle is bringing the top of your shin - and the other end of your hamstrings- closer to your butt and to your ischial tuberosities, further preventing a stretch of the hamstrings. As we hit parallel, the two ends of the hamstrings are as far apart as it is physically possible for them to be. As we continue below parallel, the problem accelerates with the hamstrings now being actively shortened until the bottom position where they are so pre-shortened as to be nearly incapable of meaningful force production. You’ll often see evidence of this when a lifter starts up, but the first movement is actually the hips moving backwards. This is his body moving to tighten the hamstrings so they can stabilize the back angle and keep him from getting folded in half.
 
@Bill Been, your advice contradicts how we teach squatting at StrongFirst.

@jca17, work on your goblet squat because, at StrongFirst, we consider it a foundational movement - the things you can learn by improving your goblet squat will stand you in good stead as you progress to heavier squats with a barbell.

-S-
 
@Bill Been, your advice contradicts how we teach squatting at StrongFirst.

Steve, not to be argumentative, but I don't see any contradtiction there to what I learned at the SFL. Just a different way to explain how tension is best maintained at the bottom of a heavy back squat. The only difference I can discern is that StrongFirst doesn't consider that initial backwards hip movement (sometiemes called knee slide) that occurs when one goes too deep in a heavy back squat to be a movement error.
 
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