Barbell Barbell overhead pressing; pro's and con's of ditching the rack

[James Sullivan]

Recently I've moved away from overhead pressing starting in a rack to starting my sets by 'cleaning' the barbell from the deck. There are a few things I like about the change and a few things that I'm not sure about. A few examples:

Like: More versatile. Barbell is somewhat portable. Rack is not.
Like: Self limiting. If I can't clean it I shouldn't be pressing it.
Like: Better carryover to IRL applications?
Dislike: Easier to set-up consistently and with very high tension out of the rack?

I'm wondering if/what others have thought about this or what conclusions you all have arrived at.

Thanks!!

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Good question!

For me, the fatigue of cleaning the barbell prior to pressing would be the main downside to not using a rack. I don't have a rack and can comfortably clean what would be a fairly heavy press for me, but I do find having to adjust my grip with the bar on my shoulders a little trickier than getting my grip just right out of the rack.

This all becomes more of an issue with 1RM attempt presses. If I'm pressing for reps then the weight is usually so easy to clean that it's not really an issue (because I don't have a particularly strong press; I'm certainly not boasting about my clean!)

If I had a rack, I would probably use it but if you're fine without it 90% of the time then carry on! Until your press weight becomes a significant percentage of your 1RM clean, it really doesn't make much difference and can save you a lot of time.

 

[Meursault]

I think the main issue is that a clean grip is not the same as a press grip, and manoeuvring with the bar in the rack position can be troublesome at higher weights.

 

[Starlord]

Pros of the rack - better ability to get strong at the press.
Pros of cleaning your press - TRAPS

 

[LukeV]

Incorporate a squat motion for your clean and you've got the Olympic clean and press, a fantastic whole body exercise which is a bit easier on technique than the other Olympic lifts

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I prefer the monolift approach if you have safety pins and spotter arms

 

[Anna C]

If training for max pressing strength and/or 1RM skill, definitely out of the rack. For me, anything less than 5 reps would fall in this category, and sometimes longer sets as well. (Training for strongman might be a different story and probably different equipment, but I've never done that).

If pressing for hypertrophy, general work capacity, variety, general fitness, either way works, but grip is an issue. Hard to get an optimum press grip when cleaning from the floor. In my mind a better combination with cleans from the floor would be jerks.

 

[James Sullivan]

If training for max pressing strength and/or 1RM skill, definitely out of the rack. For me, anything less than 5 reps would fall in this category, and sometimes longer sets as well. (Training for strongman might be a different story and probably different equipment, but I've never done that).

If pressing for hypertrophy, general work capacity, variety, general fitness, either way works, but grip is an issue. Hard to get an optimum press grip when cleaning from the floor. In my mind a better combination with cleans from the floor would be jerks.

After recently ditching the rack my programming has been in the 70-80% of 1RM range with sets mostly 5 reps or less.

Been enjoying the dynamic loading, maybe some would call pre-stretch or something else, that happens as part of the 'clean'. I feel like the first rep after the 'clean' has better acceleration / bar speed when compared with first reps of the rack as a result of that action.

I also think the 'clean' allows me to set better tension - similar to my KB press. I feel like no matter how much tension I set-up before I unrack for a MP I lose some even in my most efficient walk outs - just like with KB press if you shuffle your feet after a clean... Maybe the 'monolith' reference from @Mark Limbaga has a similar effect, but I've only got a simple squat stand. Also the timing of breath setting and holding/bracing feels easier (more natural) setting my breath before the clean (like a KB press) rather than setting and walking out.

In terms of grip setting.. I'm using the term 'clean' very loosely. I'm basically setting my pressing grip the same way I would when using a rack while the bar is on the ground, set up like a deadlift and use a fast hip extension to pop the bar up into the rack position - no knee bend to catch the weigh, no grip adjustment required.

Any observations about effects of the clean loading or ability to generate tension?

 

[Whosonfirst]

Recently I've moved away from overhead pressing starting in a rack to starting my sets by 'cleaning' the barbell from the deck. There are a few things I like about the change and a few things that I'm not sure about. A few examples:

Like: More versatile. Barbell is somewhat portable. Rack is not.
Like: Self limiting. If I can't clean it I shouldn't be pressing it.
Like: Better carryover to IRL applications?
Dislike: Easier to set-up consistently and with very high tension out of the rack?

I'm wondering if/what others have thought about this or what conclusions you all have arrived at.

Thanks!!

I like this. I was always able to clean about 40-50 lbs. more than I could press. Of course at my age, my cleaning has come down to meet my press somewhat, but it's still higher. And for some reason, cleaning a barbell always loaded my press with better tension than pressing out of a rack. And picking up a heavy bag of cement, stones, etc. the clean gave great carry-over. But I think some pressing out of rack or seated has some carry-over to a clean & press. (edit): I always set my clean grip for press or C+J at the same width. Snatch grip totally different.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Hard to get an optimum press grip when cleaning from the floor. In my mind a better combination with cleans from the floor would be jerks.

I did experiment with 'thumbless cleans' to get a better grip for pressing. It's a sort of no-contact* power clean with a thumbless grip. It makes for a more comfortable press without having to make adjustments while holding the bar in the rack postion but I'm not sure I'd recommend it; it's a bit sketchy, especially when the weight gets heavy. If you're somewhere you can drop the bar it's less of an issue.

*Meaning no contact between the bar and the thighs, for anyone not familiar with weightlifting parlance. I wouldn't feel secure using hip/thigh contact to accelerate the bar when using a thumbless grip.

 

[Anna C]

Been enjoying the dynamic loading, maybe some would call pre-stretch or something else, that happens as part of the 'clean'. I feel like the first rep after the 'clean' has better acceleration / bar speed when compared with first reps of the rack as a result of that action.

Makes sense -- we certainly do it with kettlebell clean and press!

I also think the 'clean' allows me to set better tension - similar to my KB press. I feel like no matter how much tension I set-up before I unrack for a MP I lose some even in my most efficient walk outs - just like with KB press if you shuffle your feet after a clean... Maybe the 'monolith' reference from @Mark Limbaga has a similar effect, but I've only got a simple squat stand. Also the timing of breath setting and holding/bracing feels easier (more natural) setting my breath before the clean (like a KB press) rather than setting and walking out.

I've seen a lot of variety in grip, rack position, and breath timing so it's hard to generalize here... but sounds like you've found a way that works for you.

In terms of grip setting.. I'm using the term 'clean' very loosely. I'm basically setting my pressing grip the same way I would when using a rack while the bar is on the ground, set up like a deadlift and use a fast hip extension to pop the bar up into the rack position - no knee bend to catch the weigh, no grip adjustment required.

That's what I do when I do clean and press, for a strict press. I wrap thumb around and try to get the bar in contact with the heel of the hand opposite the thumb for the strongest pressing position over the ulna. Rack position is just tight in front of the chest with forearms vertical under the bar.

For weightlifting clean and press I do it a little different -- a regular hook grip clean to jerk rack (elbows up), and then press from the rack position that is actually resting on the front delts. But like I said, if I'm working on press I usually use the rack; if I'm working on C&J I'd be cleaning from the floor.

Any observations about effects of the clean loading or ability to generate tension?

I don't feel it myself, but I wouldn't doubt that it can help you or others, just like with kettlebell cleans!

 

[watchnerd]

Recently I've moved away from overhead pressing starting in a rack to starting my sets by 'cleaning' the barbell from the deck. There are a few things I like about the change and a few things that I'm not sure about. A few examples:

Like: More versatile. Barbell is somewhat portable. Rack is not.
Like: Self limiting. If I can't clean it I shouldn't be pressing it.
Like: Better carryover to IRL applications?
Dislike: Easier to set-up consistently and with very high tension out of the rack?

I'm wondering if/what others have thought about this or what conclusions you all have arrived at.

Thanks!!

I do my presses (OHP, push press, Klokov, depending on day), like all my grinds, after I do my ballistics.

If I've already done jerks for the day, either C&J or from blocks, to @Chrisdavisjr 's point, I'm going to be too fatigued to clean as much as I could press from the rack.

I'd be leaving out a lot of shoulder volume if I didn't use a rack.

 

[James Sullivan]

I do my presses (OHP, push press, Klokov, depending on day), like all my grinds, after I do my ballistics.

If I've already done jerks for the day, either C&J or from blocks, to @Chrisdavisjr 's point, I'm going to be too fatigued to clean as much as I could press from the rack.

I'd be leaving out a lot of shoulder volume if I didn't use a rack.

Makes sense. Fast first. For me pressing is the priority and I'm training them as fresh as possible. 'Ballistics' have settled into very low-key 044/Q&D Snatches on 0 to 3 of my non-lifting days per week. After a few minutes of motor control stuff first, pressing days are just ladders of MP and pull-up 'supersets' so I'm personally not worries about effects of fatigue from the cleans.

 

[mbasic]

my $0.02 here (long arm / forearm bro)

My clean grip is fairly wide and not optimal for OHP'ing.
My clean rack is very "fingers", cannot full fist a clean or front squat.
To be able to clean-and-then-press, I would have to take a much narrower grip for the (power) clean, and then I have to rack it with a elbows down and floating rack position for the subsequent presses. IOW, I can do this for some lighter weights, but not optimal for focusing on the press..... All this being said, in my case I would have to alter "things" much. To keep technique solid on the other lifts, I don't think its a good idea to mess around with a clean-n-press.

I do like push-presses from a clean or power clean. That makes sense to me ....

 

[James Sullivan]

Has anyone here actually run a both a barbell pressing program from a rack and from the ground? Seems like mostly speculating here...

 

[North Coast Miller]

Recently I've moved away from overhead pressing starting in a rack to starting my sets by 'cleaning' the barbell from the deck. There are a few things I like about the change and a few things that I'm not sure about. A few examples:

Like: More versatile. Barbell is somewhat portable. Rack is not.
Like: Self limiting. If I can't clean it I shouldn't be pressing it.
Like: Better carryover to IRL applications?
Dislike: Easier to set-up consistently and with very high tension out of the rack?

I'm wondering if/what others have thought about this or what conclusions you all have arrived at.

Thanks!!

This is extrapolated from sandbag, since I don't use barbell currently.

I do my OHP off my knuckles after cleaning the bag. This normally requires a bounce or two in the clean position to properly seat/balance the bag, and that definitely takes a bit of gas out of the tank. But, it also definitely increases the system wide demand - after the set I can feel the difference between cleaning it dead on the money first pull, and having to shizzle it a bit.

It does not seem to effect rep count per set, but feels like it might require more recovery between sets by dragging more support muscle into the lift. To me this is overall a plus - one of the things I enjoy about sandbag is that many lifts start with a front or shoulder clean.

 

[Hardartery]

From a purely pressing standpoint, out of the rack has a ton of benefits. From an overall viewpoint, you will be better conditioned and better all-around by cleaning the weight first. Cleans are a major limiting factor, moreso because of how much gas they take out of the tank than anything else. My clean has pretty much always been better than my press, and not having rack work had a deleterious effect on my press. My best Axle press was 305, which sucks for a HW Strongman, and my Log press was similar. I have cleaned at least 360 on a log, and I could (Probably still can right now) Continental at least that on a bar or Axle. I cannot OHP 305 at this moment. Working any kind of separate pressing volume not liited by other motions or body parts always results in better progress in the Press. But no rack does not mean you cannot do fine enough.

 

[James Sullivan]

Working any kind of separate pressing volume not liited by other motions or body parts always results in better progress in the Press.

Thanks for replying. I think this is an interesting topic for sure. I'm in the 8th week of a plan where I'm cleaning the barbell before each set. Some plan variables have changed, but my press had stalled a bit in the rack so it will be interesting to see if/ how results change.

I'm also trying to understand potential crossover to/ with KB clean and press. For example in Return of the KB Pavel writes...

"Where you were recleaning between presses on most days in Enter the Kettlebell! - because you were learning to get tight - now you will be doing your presses back to back. This does not allow one to press as heavy, but works the muscles more thoroughly."

So is this interpreted to mean that also with the barbell clean you can get tighter and potentially press heavier? Does this also confirm your statement that cleans take some gas out of the tank that would otherwise be used to "work the muscles more thoroughly"?

 

[Hung]

I ran Reload with overhead press with clean at begin of each set. I struggle with the last two weeks because my clean is too dirty.

 

[jef]

Has anyone here actually run a both a barbell pressing program from a rack and from the ground? Seems like mostly speculating here...

Not really at the same time, but I have done both.

I first worked on my press years ago following starting strength up to around 50kg for 3 sets of 5 (I am a light weight at around 70kg, also with SS I went up to 79kg). I was following the program, so did all the presses from the rack.

Then, years later, I did a few month of Plan strong, cleaning the barbell (mostly because the rack would not be free...).
Cleaning the bar did not prevent me to press heavy. I even finished one cycle with a double at 60kg (the plan was for a single, but I felt strong that day) at a BW short of 70kg.
Note also that I tried to clean the way it is described in PTTP pro: a power clean with almost no knee bend, very similar to a KB clean, not like a classic olympic clean. Well, my clean was pretty ugly (bounced at the start), but it was still somehow a clean.

My opinion is that it does not really matter. With little work, it is easy to clean way more than you can press, so I don't think that pressing from the rack really gives that much advantage. But hey, it is just an opinion.