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Barbell Barbell "unnatural positioning" a bonus???

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Kozushi

Kozushi

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I've read about how when comparing kettlebells to barbells, the kettlebells come across as more "ergonomic" and the barbells as less natural. Being sort of new to this stuff, my feeling when trying out barbells is that the fact that they force my arms in kind of non-ergonomic positions is actually a bonus, because they keep a lot of muscles in tension that aren't forced into tension with more ergonomic weights.

Anyhow, am I onto something with this, or am I out to lunch?

Again, sorry to those who find me overly verbose, but it's everyone's freedom to read or not to read my crap. I'm not planning in any way to give up kettlebells, EVER, I'm just trying to figure out the art of strength.
 
Barbells are typically used for bi-lateral lifts with 2 hands on the bar and 2 feet on the ground. This type of lift is very symmetrical and the user is able to generate a lot of tension / force.

This is why the barbell is the best tool for developing maximal strength. It is also the reason why the user can become injured more easily from over loading the spine or joint soft tissue.

The kettlebell is designed to be used with 1 hand, thus training promotes the athletic benefits of anti-rotation at the joints along with the use of lighter weights which allow for much greater training volumes. These increased volumes make the body and mind very resilient over time and tend to produce results that last both on the field and in the gym.

Finally, primarily training with the Kettlebell compliments barbell training very well. IMO, the inverse is rarely the case for achieving best results especially for students over 35.
 
I read your post a few times over and I learned a lot of new things from it! I can see how kettlebells can put the joints in many different positions than with barbells and therefore build hardy strength in no matter what direction you are putting your efforts. Being a judo guy I appreciate the importance of all direction strength. I can't imagine anything being better than the kettlebell for this. Similar tools would be, I guess, sandbags and dumbbells, but kettlebells are heavier and more compact than sangbags, thus allow for more movements, and more compact than dumbbells allowing more things to be done safely with them (without blowing out the knees for instance.) The barbell seems to limit the range of motion possible as it's really just up and down. Kettlebells go up and down, but also sideways, in circles, and in twists - that's a lot more movement. This is very important, I think.
 
Think of it this way, the user HAS to conform to the barbell. It is a straight piece of steel so no matter how much mobility you have or don't have the bar is not conforming to you.

The kettlebell conforms to the user and as such the user has the responsibility of moving it the proper way. Like Pavel says, "Kettebells don't hurt people, people do. "
 
Creating tension is key in barbell training, just as with kettlebell training. Common cues for barbell lifting are:
- spread the bar
- break the bar
- pull the bar apart
- bend the bar
- pull the bar into the body

Creating torque is as important as tension for strong and safe lifts. Like "screw your feet into the floor" and "break the bar across your back" for barbell back squats, and "bend the bar" for barbell presses.
 
Hello,

One of the good thing about kettlebell is its one-handed design. If you have a weak point, you can easily focus on it to have the same strength on your left and right side.

On a barbell, if a side is stronger (or weakier) than the other, you will use compensation. This can cause injury.

I think barbell and bell can create an excellent synergy.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Okay, so this constant tension I'm forced into by the uncompromising nature of the straight barbell I assume will be of great benefit to me for hypertrophy in the upper body. I'm only thinking of using it for military presses, although I suppose I'd do clean and presses too, like a barbellized ROP system. I would not do deadlifts, as I get enough of that kind of strength for my purposes from kettlebell swings.

Could anyone give me some guidance on this? Ought I to to go out and buy a barbell set?

For those who don't know, I'm an S&S devotee (currently using the 40kg kettlebell), so this barbell stuff is for using up some of that extra "gas left in the tank" at another time of day from S&S.
 
@Kozushi If you don't have a rack, squat stands, or jerk boxes to press from you will by nature have to clean the bar. Catalyst Athletics and California Strength are the best Weightlifting resources to self teach the clean. A Pull and a Swing are nothing alike, and do not really help each other, but if you only want to get the bar to the front rack and not the benefits of cleans, I would not worry about it.

You can do front squats, and Zercher lift to supplement your Kettlebell training. If you only want presses you can Pullover and Press, Pullover and Push, and Push and Press. They are strong and fun USAWA presses that do not require extra equipment.

The origins of the bench press is Oldtime Strongmen would Hip Thrust a barbel with such force they would catch it, and Floor Press it to demonstrate their strength and power. The bench press is the watered down version of this lift.
 
Kozushi said:
Okay, so this constant tension I'm forced into by the uncompromising nature of the straight barbell I assume will be of great benefit to me for hypertrophy in the upper body.
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If you read my most recent "Best of" post in the Welcome section of the forum, you'll find a reference to a blog by Pavel on which is the best press. This blog is much more than that, though, because it discusses the pros and cons of a number of different presses - worthwhile reading for you.


Kozushi said:
I'm only thinking of using it for military presses, although I suppose I'd do clean and presses too, like a barbellized ROP system.
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I recommend instruction on the barbell clean - it's easy to do it wrong, practice it wrong, and then when the weight gets heavy, either not progress or get hurt or both.

But I'd think twice before heading down this path if I were you. The actual ROP, done with a single kettlebell, has a lot of benefits, including allowing each of your shoulders to find its own path to overhead. The standing barbell military press is great but it's not for everyone - if you want to do them, make sure you have the requisite mobility and the requisite gear. I do mine from squat stands.


Kozushi said:
I would not do deadlifts, as I get enough of that kind of strength for my purposes from kettlebell swings.
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A long-term plan should include barbell deadlifts. It teaches strength like no other lift, IMHO, and there is no such thing has having enough of that kind of strength for any purpose, IMHO. Maybe, just maybe, when you reach a benchmark like 2.5 x bodyweight - maybe.


Kozushi said:
Could anyone give me some guidance on this? Ought I to to go out and buy a barbell set?
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Don't get distracted - please state a clear, specific set of goals. If you've already posted that somewhere, please provide a link. Maybe the barbell fits, but you don't run out and buy it just because it's good - make sure it's a good fit for you.


Kozushi said:
For those who don't know, I'm an S&S devotee (currently using the 40kg kettlebell), so this barbell stuff is for using up some of that extra "gas left in the tank" at another time of day from S&S.
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You may do that but I don't recommend it. Barbell lifting is a serious, wonderful, worthwhile skill. Decide on a point where you will put S&S on the back burner and become focused on barbell strength, pick a powerlifting competition a year or two in the future, and focus your training on the barbell and not on S&S. When you're completed that phase of your training life, then decide what comes next - perhaps a return to the kettlebell and the barbell on the back burner, but learning a new skill just a little, well, that's not the way to acquire a new skill for the rest of your life.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides Great post. I guess I should have asked, what is @Kozushi experience level with barbells. I agree with most of what you said.

The Olympic Lifts have a stigma of being too difficult to learn, requiring too much flexibility, too dangerous. This perceived stigma is part of what is holding the sport back in North America. Crossfit has gone along way to bring Weightlifting back from the dead here, but it makes it more pretentious and inaccessible due to the nature of the industry.

You can self teach, or with minimal instruction. There are great resources, Olympic Weightlifting for Sports by Greg Everett, and Olympic Weightlifting for Masters by Matt Foreman, being very good and for a trainee starting later in life and looking for the awesome benefits, not to compete.


If you are in the culture of "easy strength", "minimalist training", and "20 minutes three days a week", do not bother with the Snatch and Clean and Jerk. To learn safely and progressively it takes dedication of resources. It will be challenging, uncomfortable, and frustrating. If you like that it will be addicting. I was bitten by the Weightlifting bug, and it was my life.

If you just want to learn to Power Clean, like most strength trainees, that is accessible. The first thing I drill and a novice should learn is how to fail and ditch the bar safely. If you are structurally sound, work on your front rack, have a base of strength and athletics, keep your ego in check, and are willing to invest the time, the Power Clean can be self taught. But, beware the PC is a gateway drug.

Do the Bergner Warmup and Skills Transfer exercises everyday, even multiple times a day with enthusiasm. Along with front rack stretches. It will speed the learning and flexibility curve.
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Wow, I'm overwhelmed at the detail and care you both put into your answers. THANK YOU BOTH! This point by Steve is particularly important: "But I'd think twice before heading down this path if I were you. The actual ROP, done with a single kettlebell, has a lot of benefits, including allowing each of your shoulders to find its own path to overhead."
My thought was that the unnatural positioning of the hands and arms with a barbell keeps you in more, or in a different kind of tension than the ergonomic kettlebell press and therefore develops muscles that the kettlebells don't, and it would therefore make a nice complimentary exercise to go along with S&S. But, what I'm reading is something of a qualified "no, it doesn't work like that, and there are a lot of other elements involved besides what you mentioned, and you can't keep going at S&S full-out if you do."
Given that I don't really have anywhere particularly convenient to put the barbell (I'd probably park it in front of a sofa in the living room) and I don't want to start over again from square one with my lifting (as my body is formed for S&S movements now) I think I've got enough information from you both here to decide to not purse the barbell path.
I think what I'll do is to continue to GTG some ROP-type presses at another time of day, which I have been doing for a long time already.
Just like my flurry of questions and posts back in October, I started worrying that I was somehow missing something by not using a barbell, given its enormous popularity. Of course I am, but if I start it, I'll be missing something by not keeping up with S&S too! :) I'm about half way between Simple and Sinister now. S&S is too amazing a programme for me and for my goals to want to give it up or to tone it down. I want strength mobility, strength endurance, in other words high level general preparedness, and of course toned appearance. Taking away mobility with a rigid two-handed bar wouldn't help with the first of these three goals.
 
I read that amazing press comparison article by Pavel just now.

So, the bench press is the best press. Interesting!
 
@Kozushi, the main benefit of the barbell is loading it heavy. If you're looking for awkward positioning, do odd lifts as they do in the AWA - standard barbell lifts don't deserve to be categorized as awkward, just different - a _lot_ of people have gotten used to them just fine.

And don't forget that "developing muscles," whatever the rest of that sentence, ought to be a secondary concern unless you're a bodybuilder. Choose your lifts, rest, eat, and sleep enough, and your body will adapt. If you're looking for a bigger upper body, bench; if you're looking for bigger legs, squat; if you're looking for a bigger back, you can deadlift (and do pull-ups) but you can also deadlift to minimize hypertrophy.

-S-
 
Kozushi said:
...My thought was that the unnatural positioning of the hands and arms with a barbell keeps you in more, or in a different kind of tension than the ergonomic kettlebell press and therefore develops muscles that the kettlebells don't, and it would therefore make a nice complimentary exercise to go along with S&S. But, what I'm reading is something of a qualified "no, it doesn't work like that, and there are a lot of other elements involved besides what you mentioned, and you can't keep going at S&S full-out if you do."
...

...I want strength mobility, strength endurance, in other words high level general preparedness, and of course toned appearance. Taking away mobility with a rigid two-handed bar wouldn't help with the first of these three goals.
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@Kozushi, doing ROP is not something no one should never do, there is always an exception. But, generally you will not get recommendation for that because number of reasons. One of them is that even double kettlebell pressing with ROP is not for everyone because when numbers get high (e. g. in last week you should do 75 presses in one session, on each side if using one kbell) your technique could go down and you lose control over your lower back (hyper extension) and midsection stability. Meaning, doing ROP with two kettlebells is not recommendable for most people, and doing it with a barbell even less recommendable for such high number of reps.

On the other side, using barbell pressing will not make you lose your mobility if you are aware of the "risk" and do something to prevent it. You will lose it even with kettlebell presses if your lifestyle is not mobility friendly :)
 
if you're looking for a bigger back, you can deadlift (and do pull-ups) but you can also deadlift to minimize hypertrophy.

After scaring myself a few weeks ago, I can now write with some level of confidence on how to avoid hypertrophy on the dead. Ignore time honoured advice at your peril.
 
Thank you guys! You saved me a lot of money, probably injury from overtraining, and from a feeling of "missing out". Not only do I know I don't need a barbell but I understand better what it is I am doing and why. I also understand much better now why ROP is only one arm at a time (besides the anti-rotation/twist reason which I already knew about).

This, believe it or not, I did not know: "And don't forget that "developing muscles," whatever the rest of that sentence, ought to be a secondary concern unless you're a bodybuilder."

Although S&S is making me bigger muscularly, that's one piece of the puzzle only, as the other benefits are vastly improved cardio-vascular strength, mobility, and especially STRENGTH in every direction. :) (Hopefully lifespan too!)

Actually, I went and overtrained yesterday doing NW stuff, ROP stuff, pullups, regular pushups. Oh boy! Oopse! How dumb I can be! I did an interesting test though with the one armed pushups - I weighed my hand on a scale with legs spread far apart, and with this posture I was loading only half my bodyweight onto my hand (48kg) whereas if it's one arm one leg it's about 70% (68-9kg).
 
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