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Nutrition BCAA's and Creatine.

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scottienomad

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whats up!

Right now I'm eating at sedentary calories 2200 - 2300 calories. I'm recently back into barbell strength work, so I'm trying to lose body fat while gaining back size.

Is there an optimal time to start taking creatine and BCAA's ?

I've used creatine before and love it. Keeps me drinking loads of water, and the stuff does work.

I have BCAA's never used them though, I think I should be taking them now for my goals over the next few months?

I feel like since I'm just back into barbell lifting I'm back in the sort of "noobie" sweet spot for my goal. Would starting creatine now be best, or wait until I feel like the noobie/muscle memory phase has gone ?

Cheers!
 
Gaining back size and losing weight are at odds with each other, unless you are seriously a novice or you have a serious amount of extra weight. Are you sure either of those is your case and you're not compromising your progress by trying to chase two rabbits at the same time?

If you feel that creatine helps you, just take it all the time with an off period every now and then. I see no reason to wait until a later phase or such. Keep in mind that the creatine bloat may obstruct your perception of both your weight loss and your size gains.

BCAAs should in theory be good for getting you the required amino acids in the least amount of energy. So they could be good for you on the diet.
 
I'm trying to lose body fat while gaining back size.

"Chasing Two Rabbits"

Losing fat and gaining size amount the saying about chasing two rabbits at the same time; you are going to lose both.

As Antti stated, you objective is at odds with each other.

You need to focus on one objective at at time.

Creatine

It is effective, it cheap.

Research shows that it is better to take it after a training session.

Branch Chain Amino Acids

The most important amino acid of BCAA's is Leucine. Leucine triggers mTOR, an anabolic trigger that promotes muscle growth.

Think of mTOR as a light switch. When the mTOR switch is on, muscle growth occurs. When the mTOR is off, muscle growth isn't taking place.

Leucine Dosage For mTOR Trigger

1) Research shows that between 2.5 to 4.5 gram of Leucine are needed to turn on the mTOR Switch.

Younger individual respond to lower dosages, 2.5 gram plus per serving.

Older individual need higher Leucine to elicit the same affect as younger individuals; that means around 3.5 gram per serving.

Synergistic Effect

A greater effect occurs when complete proteins are spiked with Leucine.

Thus, taking Leucine with your meals or adding them to a protein drink works.

Muscle Protein Synthesis

Muscle Protein Synthesis equates to Muscle Growth.

Meal that contain the right amount of Leucine (2.5 to 4.5 gram) turn on the mTOR, anabolic trigger.

Between 30 to 40 grams of Quality Protein is needed to obtain the right amount of Leucine.

High Quality Proteins are: Meats and Dairy, which contain high amount of Leucine.

Lower Quality Proteins are: Vegan Proteins. They are low in Leucine.

That means you need to consume a higher quantity vegan protein to elicit the same affect; roughly 40 to 50 grams per serving.

However, if you "Spike" vegan protein with Leucine, this will turn on mTOR.

Refractory Period

Research shows that Muscle Protein Synthesis is maximized when meals are 4 plus apart.

Between Meal BCAA's/Leucine

Based on some preliminary research, it appears that ingesting the right dosage of Leucine/BCAA can spike mTOR between meals.

Summary

1) Focus one thing at a time; either decreasing weight or increasing size.

2) Creatine is more effective when taken after workouts.

3) Leucine is the "Big Dog" of the BCAA's.

4) mTOR is the anabolic trigger than turn on Muscle Protein Synthesis for muscle growth.

5) 2.5 to 4.5 gram of Leucine is needed to turn on mTOR. Age dictates dosage response.

6) Muscle Protein Synthesis is maximized when meals are consumed 4 plus hours apart.

7) Meats/Dairy are higher in Leucine than Vegan Proteins.

8) Leucine/BCAA's between meals appear to be able to spike mTOR.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Great post as always @kennycro@@aol.com. I feel like your post is geared towards the muscle building path that @scottienomad mentioned.

If, however, the goal was weight loss, how would creatine & bcaa's compliment the diet regiment @scottienomad was looking to pursue?

Disclaimer: I could be wrong, I have been before, and I will be again, so if I misread your post, I apologize here.
 
Creatine is a good choice. Go for 5g/daily. No need to cycle or load.
I think if you get enough protein you really do not need BCAAs. I do not see much use in those unless you are a top level physique competitor, maybe.
 
I get calf cramps extremely easily when on Creatine. I just cycled off because of this issue. Has anybody else dealt with this?

I've read on some other forums that increasing your electrolyte intake helps, but I'm just not ready to start taking Pedialyte every night - I'd rather just save the money for now.
 
...how would creatine & bcaa's compliment the diet regiment @scottienomad was looking to pursue?

Creatine

I am a non-responder to creatine. It doesn't work for me.

However, I've seen how well it works for others. So, the only information that I can provide is from research and anecdotal data, lifters that I train with. I have no practical experience.

With that said, the research that I have found indicates that (as Marc stated) 5 grams a day works.

David Barr (Strength Coach/Researcher) has an interesting mini cyclical method of taking creatine. Barr takes creatine on his training days (after his workouts). Barr doesn't take it on his non-training days.

BCAAs

My perspective is that BCAAs are a small tool in your tool box that you don't need or use that much. So, BCAA's are not needed most of the time.

It's like Marc stated, "I think if you get enough protein you really do not need BCAAs."

The key is to ensuring that you are getting enough Leucine per meal to turn on mTOR. That is the tricky part that requires some work.

With that in mind, let look at the Leucine content of various proteins...

General Leucine Protein Content

1) Whey Protein: 12% Leucine. That means 30 gram of whey will provide 2.76 gram to of Leucine.

2) Casein and Milk Protein: 9% Leucine. That means 30 gram will provide you with about 2.7 gram of Leucine.

3) Meats, Milk, Eggs: Approximately 8% Leucine, same as Casein.

However, the composition of milk/cheese is 20% whey and 80% casein. So, it provides minutely more Leucine.

4) Vegan Protein: The Leucine content is much lower compared with Whey, Casein, Meats, and Dairy. To find the percentage of Leucine, read the label. It provides a break down in the percentages of the individual amino acids.

Since vegetable protein contains less Leucine that means you need to consume more to elicit the same affect as Whey, Casein, Meats, and Dairy.

Secondly, the quality of Meats and Dairy is superior to Vegan Proteins.
Source: Protein quality - Wikipedia

However, research shows that most of Vegan Protein's short coming can be overridden...

Added leucine makes wheat protein as anabolic as whey

This research demonstrates that spiking a vegan protein meal or drink with Leucine elicits essentially the same effect as Whey, Casein, Meats, and Dairy.

Older Individual Leucine Dosage

As an older individual, I need around 44 gram of protein. If I am consuming let say meat, that mean I need to consume right at 7.3 oz of meat.

I sometimes find 7.3 oz.; sometimes more than I want. So, I make up the difference with either Leucine or a BCCA powder that is high in Leucine.

The Synergistic Effect of Proteins

Briefly stated, ...

1) Protein Digestion Times vary from fast (20 minutes), to medium (around 180 minutes) to slow (around 360 minutes).

Thus, consuming different proteins during a meal provide a "Time Released Effect" ensuring greater Muscle Protein Synthesis.

2) Proteins contain different percentages of Amino Acids. Thus, combining different protein in a meal or drink enhances both, ensuring greater Muscle Protein Synthesis.

Milk and Egg Example

This combination provides a fast, medium and slow digested protein.

The strength of the amino acids in milk enhance the weakness of egg; the strength of egg overrides the weakness of milk amino acids.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Thank you, Kenny, for the informative post. I didn't know about vegan protein being low in leucine.

My protein supplement is vegan so I'm going to supplement with BCAAs. (Not that I'm vegan, but I liked the protein+greens combo and it tastes good and mixes easily.)

Do you have a preferred BCAA powder? I bought Bulk Supplements creatine which I later noticed is made in China. I'd prefer to avoid that this time around.
 
Now I know why I like my 3 egg omelette in butter with added double cream and cheese with a bag of spinach.

Creatine.....I've been dabbling recently. I've dabbled in the past and didn't notice anything. The aforementioned guy who takes it after training but not on other days was how I tried. Nothing to report. And never bothered after my brief experiment.
However, I've been doing the 5g a day for the last 6 weeks. Feel it in my shoulders but that could be the snatches??
Interesting thing with creatine is that it just isn't about skeletal muscle, creatine is important for many things, brain health being one and also where atp is required in hard to reach places. The hairy bits in your ears and those hairy bits of your digestive tract and in the tails of sperm! There are other interactions with other circulating aminos, not least glycine, partly as it is used in creatine synthesis but also in metabolism. If you are deficient in glycine, then that puts a strain on creatine synthesis, so supplementing with creatine, spares glycine so it can be involved in other stuff rather than creatine synthesis. And knock back some glycine whilst you are at it......and on that note, as well as my snatching arms being enhanced my sleep has improved, like a lot. Dunno if that is to do with the the glycine/creatine link or the snatches or both or something else.
 
Like IGF-1, mTor and leucine have real implications for longevity in general, and cancer in particular. Something to consider when reflecting on one's goals, short, intermediate, and long term. Anabolic may mean tumor growth as well as muscle growth. Valter Longo has done much of the research in this area, one can check his work for more info.
 
Thank you, Kenny, for the informative post. I didn't know about vegan protein being low in leucine.

My protein supplement is vegan so I'm going to supplement with BCAAs. (Not that I'm vegan, but I liked the protein+greens combo and it tastes good and mixes easily.)

Do you have a preferred BCAA powder? I bought Bulk Supplements creatine which I later noticed is made in China. I'd prefer to avoid that this time around.

Just FYI: my pea protein (Naked Pea) has 27 g of protein per serving including 2.56 g of leucine, making it 9.5% leucine, on par with most meat proteins.

Also, here is an informative article on the topic of building muscle while losing fat: Can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?
 
Just FYI: my pea protein (Naked Pea) has 27 g of protein per serving including 2.56 g of leucine, making it 9.5% leucine, on par with most meat proteins.

Pea Protein

Yes, Pea Protein is high in Leucine. Pea Protein is one, if not the highest Leucine rich protein.

However, another component is involved when it comes to measuring protein quality...

DIASS AND PDCAAS Diagestible Protein of Proteins
Plant Proteins - Today's Dietitian Magazine

DIASS appears to be replacing the PDCAAS scoring. However, both Digestible Protein Scoring Method are provide in the chart below.

0217_plant1.jpg


As the chart demonstrated, Pea Protein along with Soy Protein are two to the top rated Vegan Proteins. Thus, for individual who's choice is vegan, Pea Protein appear to be at the top of the list; that based on it DIASS Score and it high content of Leucine.

With that said, combining Pea Protein with another Vegan Protein will elicit a greater response.

Vegan Protein Time Released Effect Example

Pea Protein is a "fast-intermediate" digested protein.

Hemp is a "slow" digested protein.

Thus, by combining them you obtain more of a "Time Released Effect".

Amino Acid Profile

Also, combining Pea Protein with another vegan protein that has a complimentary amino acid profile will elicit a greater effect. The weakness of one protein source overridden by the strength of the additional protein.

Kenny Croxdale
 
The protein powder I intake daily, EAS 100% Whey Powder has 30g of protein, 6 carbs, and 2.9g leucine, 9.7% plus 1.6g L-glutamine.

Just FYI: my pea protein (Naked Pea) has 27 g of protein per serving including 2.56 g of leucine, making it 9.5% leucine, on par with most meat proteins.

Also, here is an informative article on the topic of building muscle while losing fat: Can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?
 
Just FYI: my pea protein (Naked Pea) has 27 g of protein per serving including 2.56 g of leucine, making it 9.5% leucine, on par with most meat proteins.
?

I have Vega Protein & Greens, which is 1.8g of leucine per serving of 20g of protein. (I gather that's 9% leucine.) Does that require supplemental BCAAs/leucine?
 
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