Old Forum Behind the Neck Presses

[ParamountStrong]

To the Barbell folks out there.

I've received much criticism for my use of the behind the neck press, but have never subjected my reasoning for using it to critiques by other barbell enthusiasts. The following is an article I wrote last year explaining how we use it and why. I'm looking to open a debate on this movement and find out a little bit more on why it's been banished from our strength toolbox. Don't pull any punches. I'm here for StrongFirst's opinions.

______________________________________________________

The standing front press is a fantastic exercise for the development of the upper body, but many folks run into trouble with long plateaus and pain or pinching during this lift. The pain associated with the front press often keeps people from training it resulting in the loss of this training staple. So, what’s the secret you ask? Behind the neck presses. I know that so-called fitness experts, gurus, and supposed specialists have condemned this lift, but I’m here to say that anything done wrong is bad for you. The simple truth is that the behind the neck press, done right, is great for you. Sure, if you do the behind the neck press with a very narrow grip or too much weight it can be an issue, but done properly this lift will cause your front press to skyrocket, eliminate shoulder instability, and cause your testosterone to shoot up so high that you can impregnate women just by looking at them. It’s science.

The shoulder in most American men is trained inappropriately. If you don’t believe me go into a 24 hour fitness on International Bench Press Day (Monday) and count the dudes in line for the 4 bench press stations. Next hang out at the one powerrack all week and count how many people are doing presses. This example is to say that the front of the shoulder is focused on while the rest of the shoulder and it’s constituents are hung out to dry.

This is also obvious in the rounding of the shoulders forward in most built American men. The overpowering front delt pulls the shoulder forward out of it’s appropriate articulation. This is not a great place for the shoulder to take copious amounts of stress, i.e. lifting bar bending weights above one’s head. The forward articulation of the shoulder causes the bar to travel forward during the upward motion of the press. This creates a moment arm (physics) on the shoulder creating an inappropriate amount of stress on the rotator cuff. This is where all that pinching business begins and press training ends.

The Remedy: Behind The Neck Presses

Once you’ve encountered a plateau in your press or a pinch in your range of motion it’s time to switch to behind the neck presses for a while. You see, the front press focuses on primarily anterior (front of the body) muscles. The behind the neck press recruits the triceps, lateral delts, traps, and rhomboids. Training the muscles behind the shoulder and that support the shoulder is the best way to increase shoulder stability and blow past plateaus. To start you want to perform a few behind the neck presses with a broom handle, PVC pipe, or empty barbell. You’re going to take a grip that is wider than shoulder width and place the bar in the same place it would go in the back squat. Stand straight up, squeeze your abdomen, and glutes, as you drive the bar to full extension above your head. You want to keep this bar right behind your ears during it’s whole travel. Lower the bar slowly to the hairline on your neck and return to full extension. The only rep your performing off of your back is the first one. When the reps are completed lower the bar slowly to the back squat position bending your knees to absorb the impact and take stress off the shoulder. Once you’ve done a few reps and sets with little to no weight at all it’s time to move on to the weighted behind the neck press. START WITH THE BAR. A 45lb bar is plenty. Do 3 sets of 12 three times a week (M-W-F). Every workout add a 5lb plate to each side. When you plateau with this take 10lb. off the weight you failed on and perform that weight for your next workout. When you reach your second plateau it’s time to go back to front presses. You’re shoulder won’t pinch anymore, you’re press will shoot up, and you’ll impregnate women just by looking at them

 

 

[jgruginski]

Hey Christian,

While I am an SFG, I can't say that I represent the "StrongFirst opinion" or the entire community, so I'll just give you my opinion based on my own knowledge. When I read your post, the biggest take away that I believe I should get is that when done right, the exercise is fine. But I think that the method you're describing it almost seems like it's a cure for poor form, especially when you write that it will "eliminate shoulder instability". I would put to you that if a person has shoulder instability and/or a pinch in their shoulder, then they shouldn't be doing the behind the neck press or any pressing where a pinch is felt. I guess that puts us in a chicken and egg scenario based on your expressed view.

Here's what I think needs to be dealt with from my perspective: if you say that the behind the neck press will help with instability, then I have to wonder what caused the instability in the first place. Are we talking glenohumeral instability? If so, I'd like to understand how putting the external rotators in an extremely shortened position (decreasing their efficacy in humeral head control) while compressing the joint during the press (through gravity acting on the weight, compression from the triceps and other muscles crossing the joint) would help with that type of stability. If we're talking scapular instability, then I would think that behind the neck pull downs would be a better choice (although I'm not an advocate for them either) since you get better activation of the rhomboids and lats and minimize the input from the traps which are a typical cause of impingement when overactive and may be contributing to the pinch you're trying to relieve in the first place. I completely agree with "Training the muscles behind the shoulder and that support the shoulder is the best way to increase shoulder stability and blow past plateaus." I don't agree with your exercise selection to do that which I'll explain in a bit.

I think that if you say that using too much weight on the behind the neck press is a problem, then provide guidance on how much wouldn't be a problem. Starting with the bar would definitely be too much for some people and the jump from PVC or a broomstick to a 45 lb bar is significant, but I guess it all depends on who you're writing this for. I understand that the discussion wasn't to be around the article, but I'm using what you wrote as a way to measure what you know and why you made the choice.

You list that the front press works the muscles on the front of the body without listing them and yet the muscles you list for the behind the neck press are also used for the front press (not exclusively), but you don't specifically state that. And if you don't think you use those same muscles (including the rhomboids and traps), during a front press then you don't quite understand their function in regard to scapular control.

Your example of the front delts being the muscles that pull the shoulder forward tells me that you might not understand that mechanism because the pec minor and major are exponentially more to blame for rolled shoulders. How do I know? Years as a physical therapist treating those folks. So that revelation may have exposed my bias but I'm truly wiling to be swayed if the argument is valid.

In general, I get that it's good marketing to take something that's been vilified and try to show how it can be useful. However, the problem that you have with the way this is written now and the exercise you've chosen is that there are much better exercises to skin the cat that have a better safety profile and return on investment, like the face pull. However, most people "in the know" don't have any issue with the face pull, so you lose the marketing edge there.  Instead of using something fixed like a pipe, bar, or broomstick, why not use a band? It would require you to maintain constant tension and would demand better scapular control in both directions. You just start by grabbing the band at shoulder width and pulling it to about snatch width. then start with it overhead and pull it down and "press" it back up.

In the end, the movement itself isn't a bad one, but not for the reasons you've stated. Like I said, I can be swayed on this but what you've shown so far isn't going to do it. Charles Poliquin had a similar point and stated that someone should have healthy enough shoulders to be able to behind the neck press 66% of what they bench. I can see using the move as a way to gauge that you are keeping your shoulders "in balance" but unless you're starting from the point where your shoulders are healthy without pinching, I think it should be avoided.

 

[Derrick Blanton]

Consider another view from the non-kettlebell, barbell world.

On board with the BNP as a viable corrective when loaded lightly, and as a legit strength move when motor pattern and mobility is solid, and load is increased.

Odd that the same corrective type thinkers who will decry the use of this exercise are likely to have you do "wall slides", or prone Blackburns, sending the shoulder and scapula into the exact same range of motion.  Problem is that wall slides use the wall as a poor substitute for a glute/abdominal brace that allows the T-spine to extend and the humerus to rise in open 360-degree open space.

Fine as preliminary diagnostic tools, but not necessarily a great long term solution.

RE: Joe:  Speaking generally, and not for Christian.

The instability certainly can be more a scapular function than a rotator cuff function.   I tend to disagree that the traps are the primary impingement risk, and suggest that the traps, upper especially, get a bad rap for co-contracting with the pec minor, which for my money is the real culprit in impingement, along with horrible T-spine extension.

If the pec minor is heavily dominant and pulling the scapula forwards into anterior tilt, then that creates a balance problem as the arms try to go overhead.  The scapula cannot stabilize because the mid and lower traps, rhomboids, are not strong or active enough to resist the pull "over the hill".  Thus you see the most common compensation, an exaggerated lumbar arch to approximate the necessary scapular angle.

The external rotation of the humerus is secondary to the scapular retraction and  posterior tipping needed for the humeral head to clear the acromion.  If you take the high 5 position in the scapular plane, and retract the the scaps hard the arms will follow and make a goal post. This is essentially the prone W, which is part of many corrective protocols.   The humerus will not rotate further in the socket, it is along for the scapular retraction ride.

Where excessive external rotation will most definitely become a serious problem, is if the subscapularis is not sufficiently strong to keep a load going straight up, and allows the humerus to drift backwards.  So the subscap provides the "check" or the "brake" on allowing too much external rotation.  Both presses, from behind the neck and in the scapular plane, should end directly over the spine, roughly the back of the cranium.

As to load, a broomstick to begin, and then bands can be applied, and then a light barbell, say 10-15 lbs. can be used.  Soft tissue work and stretching can be used to calm down the pecs, and loads of scapular retraction work, band pull aparts, rear delt flies, can be used to balance out the front to back discrepancies.  So I see light BNP's as an extension to regular correctives, and it may not be necessary  to load too high.

But if you do  load, I personally find the muscular adaptation to favor the lateral delt, and upper traps, moreso then pressing to the front.

Many times muscles fire extremely hard when placed in a stability function.  I am sure that my upper back and scapular retractors fire as hard or harder on BNP, (I go heavy on these), as they do on heavy rows.  Much like heavy BSQs, your upper back and scapular controllers fire very, very hard in an isometric brace.

If you become bulletproof behind the neck, this will almost certainly translate to bulletproof pressing in the scapular plane; the reverse is not necessarily the case.

Just my opinion, obviously.

 

 

 

[ParamountStrong]

Joe,

As stated before my article was meant to strike up an educated debate, and based on your response that is exactly what I’m going to get.

Derrick, I appreciate your response and input. Thank you.

The article was written for a population of gym rats, particularly those that train at my gym. I was not consciously dumbing anything down, but I tend to lose a lot of folks when I throw in phrases like “scapular retraction” or “glenohumeral instability”.

I’m also not ashamed to say that I had to break out some of my old text books in forming my response.  Your insight and opinion is appreciated. Your assumption that I’m attempting to market myself or the gym utilizing a formerly condemned article is only half right. Yes, I’m presenting my idea that differs with the general opinion, but only after I’ve attempted it with success first on myself and later on others. I want to share my success in developing a better shoulder, because I know what a pain in the a#@ a bum shoulder can be. Finally before continuing in my response I wanted to learn about other methods in correcting similar issues.

In this article I am not claiming a fix to glenohumeral instability, any dislocations, or subluxations. I believe these issues are thin ice to be walked on by a strength coach and would best be handled by someone with your education and credentials.

The article is meant to address secondary shoulder impingements due specifically to muscular imbalances.

The talk of only the front delt and the lack of mentioning the pec minor in my article is a flaw, but I believe the deltoid causes the humeral head to shift up causing an impingement of the rotator cuff in between the humeral head and the acromion during most muscularly unstable shoulders. In my opinion, this type of shoulder impingement coupled with pec minor tightness can be resolved with the behind the neck press. Are there better exercises? You’ve mentioned a few viable alternatives and Derrick mentioned a progression utilizing bands toward the BNP.

I believe that the behind the neck press if done properly can strengthen scapular retraction and dynamic stabilization of the shoulder through overhead ranges of motion.  A weakness in just one of the muscles suspending the scapula can affect the overall function of the shoulder, and this is why I’m an advocate for the PVC pipe as a progression to weighted behind the neck presses. The PVC pipe forces a symmetrical movement from both shoulder girdles and a loosening of the pec minor and front delt allowing the the proper mechanics to ensue.

In lifters, impingements are often caused by weakness of the rotator cuff muscles, particularly the infraspinatus and subscapularis. This can cause the humerus to mistrack and compress the supraspinatus. I believe the value in the BNP as a tool in correcting this mistrack lies in its ability to effectively strengthen the rhomboids, infraspinatus, teres minor and supraspinatus.

Now, I need to go lie down. All these big words are giving me a headache and I'm reminded why I didn't pursue a career in Physical therapy.

Keep the debate going. I'm learning.

Respectfully,

Christian

 

[jgruginski]

First, I want to say that I am absolutely loving this discussion, and I know that I am not the expert. Derrick, I can't speak for all rehab folks, but I think it's fair to say that while one component of the motion may be similar to some correctives (I am not a fan of wall slides), I just think there are better choices.  Also, the bottom portion of the BNP, if the lifter doesn't stay mindful, can be a dangerous spot. In the end, the one thing I had to ask myself is "what is the point of doing this exercise?"  If I have healthy shoulders, then I don't see the problem with using the BNP as an exercise but if I have other choices to reach the same goal, then I take them.  The real issue I have is with the idea that it can correct existing painful or pinching impingement. If I've got someone who has an active painful shoulder, a horizontal row makes more sense to me. I don't have any serious problems myself, but I know that after an AC separation years ago, I have to be very careful with controlling movement.  I do band BNPs almost daily, but if I'm not actually pressing weights, am I doing a BNP or a behind the neck pull down? I'm just asking to be a pain, so dont bother answering.  But I really wonder if it's the ability to control the scapula during the movement or the movement itself that provides the benefit.

I like the idea of blaming the pec minor instead of the upper trap, however I can only go by what I saw in the clinic. So many of my shoulder patients were stress cases and carried so much tension there with resulting shoulder elevation during flexion and abduction. I've also seen through KB experience the tendency to shrug when a lifter's confidence isn't there.  Maybe the weakest common denominator is just where I focus after seeing so many strong people with poor mechanics.  I've personally also gotten too focused on the weight lifted or the number of reps instead of the quality of my movement.  I know the average joe may also have similar lapses in judgement and I would rather avoid the possibility.

If you guys are having success with the exercise and are building strong shoulders with it, then kudos to you. I'll stay away from the weighted version until I'm really sure I'm ready.  Pretty sure I rambled long enough And don't have anything else to add, but I'll be checking to see what other responses come out of this.

 

[ali]

I'm a little lost with the anatomy but just to throw this in: behind the neck pull for 'issues' or correctives, rather than a press? I do not know the whys and wherefores so other than to say gymnasts train it. I train in a gym - gymnastic gym - (although not at the moment) and a couple of gymnasts train behind the neck pulls on a bar, not many, but they plug the movement. Good for the scaps, no idea why and no idea if this is correct, is good or bad, works or doesn't work but the guys I've seen train them have shoulders that get stuck in doorways. That's pulls mind, not presses.

 

[Pavel]

Christian, it is a fine exercise when done correctly and one has the mobility.  The correct technique is used by weightlifters—standing, with a wider grip, starting off the trap where the bar sits for high bar squats.