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Barbell Being Upper Back Dominant Versus Lat Dominant

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nyet07

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello Everybody,

I am sure most of you have dealt with back development in the past and dealing with it now. I've done A LOT of pull ups in the past and my lats grew wide as a consequence. I recently read Pavel's Tactical Pull-up and Discussion of Rows articles. In this Tactical Pull-up article, he was mentioning he had seen an acrobat with wide lats but with no mid-upper back development. Now my problem is I have exactly the same problem with the acrobat, that is having wide lats but no middle back development at all. I can even say there is a hole in my upper back due to lack of muscular development.

After reading Discussion of Rows article, I was pretty sure that I need to do some horizontal pulling exercises. So far everything sounds good. When I actually began doing horizontal movements such as "Tug of War" mentioned in the article where one rows with a V-handle with 45 degree bent torso or chest assisting pulling movements such as batwings, I still felt the stretch and the force mainly in my lats rather than in my upper-back. The only way I could really feel my upper-back was if I made the any pulling movement with a wide grip rather than narrow one. In that case "the Dead Row" mentioned in the article was a better choice than the others to engage upper-back. Yet then I had to elevate my shoulders a little bit to prevent bar from hitting to my knees(as far as I know elevating shoulders is no no). After all, inverted rows with a wide grip seemed to be the best option for me because no elevation of shoulders is necessary and can be done with a wide grip.

When I do pulling exercises, I pay special attention to keep my shoulders low to prevent injury yet my online research showed that some people suggest doing pulling exercises with elevated shoulders to engage upper-back more. What's your thoughts about it? As I realized keeping shoulders down engages lats for sure and may be limiting range of motion of upper-back.

I also think it may be neurological since one may have more nerves in their lats hence more control compared to their upper-back. What do you think?
 
Horizontal pulling is missing from StrongFirst. Which is an oversight in my opinion. What is a heavy bench press, without a heavy row? For more lats Row low, for more upper back row high.

Properly preformed Pendelay Rows are one of my all time favorite exercises, Seal Rows are a close second. I try to sell Barbell Rows but no one buys.
 
Welcome @nyet07

nyet07 said:
When I do pulling exercises, I pay special attention to keep my shoulders low to prevent injury yet my online research showed that some people suggest doing pulling exercises with elevated shoulders to engage upper-back more. What's your thoughts about it? As I realized keeping shoulders down engages lats for sure and may be limiting range of motion of upper-back.
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I would suggest to train proper movement patterns (shoulders depressed in this case), that how you get each muscle to work in it's proper function. I would advise against working in a compromised position to isolate muscles from the same reasons.

The upper back is scapular control muscles. Keeping to same reasoning I would suggest to train movements which put high demands in that area. Dan John's batwings are a good place to start. Once you proficient at those @Geoff Chafe rowing suggestions will work as well.

S&S also put allot of demands on scapular stability, and in my opinion is a better all-around scapular control developer. The TGU is self explanatory and the 1-arm swing shoulder packing demands will force you to hold your scapula in place. See @Pavel Macek photo from his log doing heavy get-ups for reference. Overheard movements in general will also build a strong upper back.

The reason I put so much emphasis on function is that (when pain/injury free) training function will lead to proper structural adaptations. Fabio Zonin's latest body building article on the blog is another great example for that.
 
@Kettlebelephant Awesome exercise, one of my favorites, but better off blocks. Watch your fingers on the pins. Pull from the floor, deficit, or off blocks to match you conventional deadlift height, or partial pull. Any exercise that puts you at a disadvantage I am a fan of.

Snatch grip is a grip when standing erect the bar hit the crease of the hips. For most males that is fairly close to the collars. Any lower, or narrower, and you will crush your unit. Ouch. Try snatch grip hangs, and presses behind the neck also.

In the snatch grip press pull the bar apart hard to press the weight up. Klokov put his name on it, but it was around long before him.
 
@nyet07, would you or someone please post links to the two articles you mention in your original post?

Geoff Chafe said:
Horizontal pulling is missing from StrongFirst. Which is an oversight in my opinion.
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I don't know that I'm qualified to answer this, but I will take a shot, anyway.

We have found that many people improve at pull-ups without practicing pull-ups when they practice our technique of an active negative on the kettlebell military press. Even though we do teach the pullup at our bodyweight courses and certifications, I think it's cool (for lack of a better word) that it works this way.

I cannot speak for others, but when I practice my one-arm pushups, I row myself into the bottom position. Whether or not this is sufficient for purposes of upper back development isn't something I can say, but I'm happy so far with how it's working out for me.

I think much the same is true for hip flexors - we teach how to use them to pull yourself down into a squat.

-S
 
@Steve Freides My belief in horizontal pulling is directed more toward the barbell program, but I feel the same about kettlebells and body weight. I also really like inverted Rows and ring Rows, of which I plugged into Kettlebell training with chin-ups and pull-ups.

It sounds great in theory to say we pull the Kettlebell down, down into the squat, and down into a push-up or bench press. If you do not build that strength and pattern and activate those muscles, how does a novice or beginners know what that feels like? Some will get it, some won't, and if you train it you will build a stronger mind body connection.

For me, and I am sure many others, pull-ups before overhead pressing, rows before benching/push-ups, hanging knee raises before squats, and hanging leg raises before hinging activates that pattern and connection making you "feel it" and make that antigonist stronger.
 
Geoff Chafe said:
For me, and I am sure many others, pull-ups before overhead pressing, rows before benching/push-ups, hanging knee raises before squats, and hanging leg raises before hinging activates that pattern and connection making you "feel it" and make that antigonist stronger.
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I couldn't have said that any better myself @Geoff Chafe

Any yin that's complimented by a yang will make the sum of the two reach a higher state than any one in isolation.
 
@Geoff Chafe, we spend a lot of time and energy making sure people get those things at our courses and certs - not to train opposing muscle groups but to ensure safety and performance in the lifts we're teaching. It's a theory we've put into practice pretty well, IMHO.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides I am certain the StrongFirst organization is top notch. I just feel strongly about thoroughly training the back. I am not disagreeing, I am just adding my experience. As we all do. Activation works for me, because that is what I know, but if I do a StrongFirst seminar or certification, I would learn and implement your specific methods.
 
IMG_4479.JPG

I have always preferred renegade rows as part of my accessory work. If you are aiming for upper / mid back development add this routine to your regular training 1 - 2 x per week:

10 sets (go as heavy as possible with good form)

A) Farmer Carry 25 paces
B) Renegade Rows 5 + 5
 
@Steve Freides

Here are the articles.

Discussion of Rows
The Best Upper Body Pull

And for those who suggests literal pulling exercises such as renegade or one arm row, they just hit may lats not the upper back. Wide grip rack pulls are much more beneficial since wide grip puts the lats in a mechanical disadvantageous position plus it does not require elevation of shoulders. I also do fair amount of overhead and bent presses. I don't think they fire enough nerves to stimulate growth in mid back, in addition to that I feel I protect my shoulder with my lats during overhead presses. Pendalay Rows definitely works mid-back but requires elevation of shoulders little bit which may or may not cause injury. As for kettlebell swings, upper back muscles work as stabilizers to prevent from chest collapsing forward but I don't think it is enough in my case. I have fairly developed upper trapezius and lats relative to my body but mid and low trapezius is not visible at all.
 
Hello,

Would Zercher Squats be an option ? With that move, the barbell is in front of you in the angle between arm and forearm, more or less at upper belly level.

Otherwise, +1 @Kettlebelephant with 1H swings. I think this is one of the best exercise for back.

Kind regards;,

Pet'
 
@Kettlebelephant

My work with Kettlebell does not exceed 250-300 swings per week. I mostly do regular swings with a 50 ibs kettlebell. I rarely do 1H swings. Main exercises I do are Regular Kettlebell Swings, Windmills, Side and Bent Presses, overhead presses and one-arm Rows.
 
@MattM

I definitely agree face pulls work the region very well. I had done them years ago. However, band pullaparts seems to work my front deltoids a lot more than my back.
 
nyet07 said:
band pullaparts seems to work my front deltoids a lot more than my back.
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nyet07 said:
I also do fair amount of overhead and bent presses. I don't think they fire enough nerves to stimulate growth in mid back, in addition to that I feel I protect my shoulder with my lats during overhead presses.
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Another 2 cents... (actually these are the same two cents from before, based on more information from the thread)

Pull-aparts working your front deltoid rather than posterior delt and rhomboids, OH work that does not stimulate scapular stabilizers... Sounds to me like dysfunctional stabilization patterns. Do you have any ROM limitations in your shoulder girdle or T-spine? Pain? I would suggest you would do a FMS and go from there. Seems you need mobility and patterning work.
 
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