Barbell Bench Press Technique Bar Path

[Kenny Croxdale]

Bench Press Technique Bar Path

One of the keys to moving more weight in movement is finding the least path of resistance.

With that said, let's look at how to increase your Bench Press based on research by...

Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Bio-Mechanics/Former Powerlifter)

In 1984, McLaughlin's research examine some of the differences between Elite World Record Holders in the Bench Press did and Novice Bench Pressers.

In other words, what were the Elite Bencher doing right and what were the Novice Benchers doing wrong.

McLaughlin went into greater depth about this is his book, "Bench Press More Now"; now out of print.



I have McLaughlin's book. It is one of the best on Bench Pressing.

Pre-Bench Press Shirt Research

McLaughlin's research is based on Bench Pressing in a T-Shirt. The Bench Press Shirts had not been introduced to the sport.

With that in mind, a Bench Press Shirt changes the dynamics of the lift; meaning that the Bar Path will be different.

There's no data on the what Bar Path occurs in the Bench Press, when a Bench Press Shirt is worn.

Two Groups To Learn From

As with everything in life, there are two group that you can learn from...

1) Successful Individuals: Find out what they are doing right and emulate them.

2) Unsuccessful Individuals: Find out what they are doing wrong and avoid it.

Dr Greg Nuckols does a nice job of examining McLaughlin's research data in his article...

Bench Press Bar Path: How to Fix Your Bar Path for a Bigger Bench

Bench Press Bar Path: How to Fix Your Bar Path for a Bigger Bench

There is a simple bench press bar path tweak that can make a big difference. Learn how to optimize your bar path for a bigger bench.

www.strongerbyscience.com

As demonstrated below, the Bar Path examined three Bench Pressers...



1) Novice Lifter Bar Path was less effective than the Elite Bench Pressers.

2) Elite Lifters Bar Paths were somewhat similar; Smaller vs Larger Elite Bench Pressers.

What McLaughlin determined was that the Bar Path varied due to the size difference in the Lighter Weight Lifter (Mike Bridges, 181 lbs, about 5'3") and the Heavier Weight Lifter (Bill Kazmaier, 320 lbs, 6'2").

Both Bridges and Kazmaier's hand grip was at the rule limit of 81 cm (about 32")

Due the difference in their arm length, the Bar Path was slightly different for Lighter vs Heavier Lifters.

" This is where McLaughlin’s research comes into play.:

"The novice lifters initiated the press by shoving the bar essentially straight up off their chest, with the bar path angled back only slightly. Since the bar didn’t move back toward their shoulders very much, total flexion demands at the shoulders were still very high (relative to the load they were lifting) when the bar reached the sticking point of the lift a few inches off the chest."

"The elite lifters, on the other hand, initiated the press by shoving the bar up off their chests and back toward their shoulders. Since the bar did move back toward their shoulders, total flexion demands at the shoulders decreased as the bar approached the sticking point."

''
Average bench press bar paths for novice lifters (dashed line) vs. elite lifters (solid line). Especially pay attention to the short segment between points 4 and 6 on each line."

"...Both groups of experts had much less horizontal distance between the bar and their shoulders than did the novice group. This helps minimize the total shoulder flexion demands, increasing how much force they could apply to the bar."

Bridge Increased His Bench Without Getting Stronger

One of the most interesting pieces of reach from McLaughlin was on how Bridges increased his Bench Press World Record without getting stronger...

"Mike Bridges added 60lbs to his bench in a year (386 to 446) by altering his bar path to dramatically increase the minimum force he could exert on the bar. Force = mass x acceleration, and the minimum acceleration (labeled “7” on both graphs, coinciding with minimum force) increased dramatically between 1978 and 1979, allowing him to bench more even as maximum acceleration decreased (maximum force still increased a bit though, because there was more weight on the bar). This is the hallmark of more efficient technique: minimum force during the movement approaching maximum force.{Mike Bridges added 60lbs to his bench in a year (386 to 446) by altering his bar path to dramatically increase the minimum force he could exert on the bar. Force = mass x acceleration, and the minimum acceleration (labeled “7” on both graphs, coinciding with minimum force) increased dramatically between 1978 and 1979, allowing him to bench more even as maximum acceleration decreased (maximum force still increased a bit though, because there was more weight on the bar). This is the hallmark of more efficient technique: minimum force during the movement approaching maximum force."

Summary

1) Bench Press Path Trajectory

Research demonstrates the most effective method of driving more weight up in your Bench Press is to essentially push the weight back toward your head, in an arc.

2) Trying to push the weight straight up in a Bench Press is counter productive; it ensures you are going to encounter more force, the weight of the bar is magnified beyond its true weight.

3) McLaughlin's research also examines how the Eccentric Speed in lowering the bar plays vital role in your Bench Press Max.

4) The key to developing Bench Press Technique (which is the same with all movements) involves the use of heavy loads performed for one repetition.

5) There is a needs for training the Competition Bench Press with a "Touch and Go" (developing the Stretch Reflex) as well as training the Bench with a Competition Pause.

6) Increasing your Bench Press is accomplished with Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature to the Bench Press. Developing strength in the Competition Bench Press with multiple repetition in a set leads to muscle fatigue; meaning your technique and the muscle firing sequence of the muscle in the Bench Press change.

 

[Antti]

I would argue that there are also opposing viewpoints with merit.

The obvious example is Westside Barbell and Louie Simmons, who is extremely successful as a coach. And even if the Westside lifters compete in multiply, they train raw, and have great raw bench presses.

This subject also comes to strong muscle groups. Simmons considers that it is rare that a lifter trains their triceps hard enough, which is evident in the typical injuries with the bench press. Certainly, the bar path will follow what an individual has as his strongest muscles. Thus, individuals with relatively stronger triceps will have a more straight forward bar path.

Also, even if we take it that the bar will move towards the face during the concentric, it doesn't mean that pushing the bar towards the face would be a useful cue for a lifter.

In the end, I would say that the bar path is individual, and I would see the need to address the movement in the horizontal plane rarely.

 

[Steve Freides]

@kennycro@@aol.com's link contains further links to read this out-of-print book, presented in sixteen individual sections. I'm up to section six and intend to read the whole thing. The book reads well to me, marrying science and practical experience in a way that will be familiar, I think, to regular participants of our forum.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I would argue that there are also opposing viewpoints with merit.

The obvious example is Westside Barbell and Louie Simmons,

Opposing Views

I am an advocate the Westside Training Protocol. Simmons was innovate in developing his method.

However, some of Simmons has at time come to and promoted some incorrect information.

Certainly, the bar path will follow what an individual has as his strongest muscles. Thus, individuals with relatively stronger triceps will have a more straight forward bar path.

Raw Bench Press Training

McLaughlin's research determined that Bar Path of Elite Raw Bench Pressers were similar. The variance was in the "Wing Span" of Smaller Lifter like Mike Bridges (5'3") vs Bill Kazmaier (6'2") each performing the Bench Press with an 81 cm grip width.

Based on the information that you provided, we must assume that Bridges and Kazmaier had weak triceps; which doesn't make sense.

Secondly, in a Raw Bench Bench Press, research by Dr Gideon Ariely (substantiated in McLaughlin's) determined that the Sticking Point is during the first third of the movement; the weaker angle in the movement. The same is true with most other Ascending Strength Curve Movements; Squats, Deadlift, Overhead Press, etc.

The Triceps have a more dominate role at the top end of the Bench Press. A Raw Bench Presser rarely missed locking it out in the top part of the lift.

I would say that the bar path is individual, and I would see the need to address the movement in the horizontal plane rarely.

The Bench Press Shirt

The Bench Press Shirt eliminates the weak point of a Raw Bench Press (the weak point, the first third of the lift). Lifter using a Bench Press shirt can push up 30 to 100 lbs more in the Bench Press. That is more than the triceps can often lockout with.

That is one of the primary reason that Westside Bench Pressers other lifter using Bench Press Shirts increase their Triceps Strength Training.

Novice Lifters Bench Pressing

McLaughlin's research noted that Novice Lifter tended to try push the bar straight up, were less successful.

Also, even if we take it that the bar will move towards the face during the concentric, it doesn't mean that pushing the bar towards the face would be a useful cue for a lifter.

Useful Cue

So, what would be the right cue? Focus on pushing the bar straight up, which is counter productive.

The purpose of a cue to increase the mind-muscle connection; knowing how to drive the bar up in the right pathway.

In a well performed lift, the bar should feel like it is on rails (on the right pat); it is heavy but it is gliding smoothly upward.

I would say that the bar path is individual, and I would see the need to address the movement in the horizontal plane rarely.

Research Does Not Support That

As Dr Craig Marker basically stated in one his articles, "Your feeling/beliefs don't matter; scientific research does."

McLaughlin's research was based on real world anecdotal data on the Bar Path of World Bench Record Pressers.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

further links

Notes On The Bench Press
http://rhinopowerlifting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/BENCH-PRESS.pdf

This is another link that I found on it.

 

[Antti]

Opposing Views

I am an advocate the Westside Training Protocol. Simmons was innovate in developing his method.

However, some of Simmons has at time come to and promoted some incorrect information.

Raw Bench Press Training

McLaughlin's research determined that Bar Path of Elite Raw Bench Pressers were similar. The variance was in the "Wing Span" of Smaller Lifter like Mike Bridges (5'3") vs Bill Kazmaier (6'2") each performing the Bench Press with an 81 cm grip width.

Based on the information that you provided, we must assume that Bridges and Kazmaier had weak triceps; which doesn't make sense.

Secondly, in a Raw Bench Bench Press, research by Dr Gideon Ariely (substantiated in McLaughlin's) determined that the Sticking Point is during the first third of the movement; the weaker angle in the movement. The same is true with most other Ascending Strength Curve Movements; Squats, Deadlift, Overhead Press, etc.

The Triceps have a more dominate role at the top end of the Bench Press. A Raw Bench Presser rarely missed locking it out in the top part of the lift.


The Bench Press Shirt

The Bench Press Shirt eliminates the weak point of a Raw Bench Press (the weak point, the first third of the lift). Lifter using a Bench Press shirt can push up 30 to 100 lbs more in the Bench Press. That is more than the triceps can often lockout with.

That is one of the primary reason that Westside Bench Pressers other lifter using Bench Press Shirts increase their Triceps Strength Training.

Novice Lifters Bench Pressing

McLaughlin's research noted that Novice Lifter tended to try push the bar straight up, were less successful.

View attachment 12843

Useful Cue

So, what would be the right cue? Focus on pushing the bar straight up, which is counter productive.

The purpose of a cue to increase the mind-muscle connection; knowing how to drive the bar up in the right pathway.

In a well performed lift, the bar should feel like it is on rails (on the right pat); it is heavy but it is gliding smoothly upward.


Research Does Not Support That

As Dr Craig Marker basically stated in one his articles, "Your feeling/beliefs don't matter; scientific research does."

McLaughlin's research was based on real world anecdotal data on the Bar Path of World Bench Record Pressers.

I never said that Bridges, Kazmaier or anyone had weak triceps. However, nobody has muscles that are equally strong. So, I would say that their triceps were relatively weak compared to their shoulders and chest.

I wouldn't also say that all raw lifters have a similar sticking point. I'm an example of it myself; I have troubles at the lockout.

I realize that Simmons' advice on the focus on the triceps is in part because of the bench shirt. However, that doesn't explain the mostly raw training and impressive raw benches, which I originally mentioned.

Regarding the cue; I rarely see the need to cue someone on the horizontal bar movement. I concentrate on giving few cues, and making them count. So I wouldn't really worry about it.

I wouldn't discount the scientific basis of the Westside Barbell. After all, their processes and ways of training have been used in Supertraining, for example. Also, results speak for themselves.

 

[Starlord]

I used to be a HUGE proponent of Louie Simmons' bench press technique.

Good strong arch, with the lats being the primary muscle to control the bar path down. Hitting at the apex of the arch and then popping the lats and tris straight up in a straight line (ish).

This got me to approx 160kg raw and when I tried a single ply shirt 220kg was built within a few months after strengthening the lats and tris further. As well as learning the shirt.

When I hit a 180kg bench (a#@ shot off the bench but I'm not a powerlifter so only slag me off a little bit please) I still heavily used the lats but because my technique changed to an upside down J (best way I can describe it) rotating externally towards my head as opposed to internally towards my body I can get more of the pecs and delts involved. Which was like a huge light bulb going off moment for me once I started adopting this technical change.

A couple of additional. I think the Louie Simmons method allows for FAST progress to be make raw. The lats are a HUGE muscle and it puts the pecs and delts in what feels like a very safe position. It translates IMMENSELY well in the shirt. However this will put you in a position where if your upper back and tris are not strong enough to support the weight at lockout you could very well kill yourself.

The raw technique feels like it involves more TOTAL muscle and therefore I can shift more weight. HOWEVER external rotation definitely didn't feel as secure at the former technique. Building from the former to the latter felt good because back and tris were already VERY strong and setup was tight. So it was just a case of progressing with the new technique and allowing the pecs and delts to catch up. Which didn't take long because it is impossible to eliminate them from the bench. Only shift the focus.

The Kazs technique is like an extreme version of the latter technique. Where as Bridges is a subtle version of the latter. I've not had my bar path measured but I am willing to put good money on betting my limb length is between the two.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I never said that Bridges, Kazmaier or anyone had weak triceps. However, nobody has muscles that are equally strong. So, I would say that their triceps were relatively weak compared to their shoulders and chest.

I doubt that Bridges and Kazmaier triceps were "relatively weak compared to their shoulders.

I wouldn't also say that all raw lifters have a similar sticking point. I'm an example of it myself; I have troubles at the lockout.

Ariely and McLaughlin's research indicate the sticking points for most Raw Lifters have a similar Sticking Point.

Secondly, the Sticking Point for most individual in an Ascending Strength Curve Movement is in the first third of the movement.

Individual who have a problem with locking the weight out in a Raw Bench Press, have a triceps issue; which wasn't the case for Bridges nor Kazamier.

I concentrate on giving few cues

And what might those cue be?

I wouldn't discount the scientific basis of the Westside Barbell.

Some of the Westside Training Protocol is based on good science.

Some Simmons information is misinformation. I have no idea of how he come up with it. Regardless of where it came from, science and anecdotal data do not substantiate his claim.

Two Examples

1) Driving the Bar Straight Up rather than in a arc.

a) In a Raw Bench Press, the research and anecdotal data have clearly demonstrate arcing the weight back up is more effective comparted to trying to push the weight back up.

Even Novice Lifter had a bit of an arch in driving the weight up.

I doubt the individual who believe they are driving the weight straight up, really are; they just feel/think they are. As mentioned, it doesn't matter what you feel/believer. What matter is what is actually occurring.

2) Simmons has stated the in a Paused Movement, the Stretch Reflex last longer than 4 seconds.

Research by Wilson (cited in Supertraining/Siff & Verkhoshansky) stated that the Stretch Reflex can last up to 4 second before is it complete gone.

Wilson research determined that after 1 second, around 50% of the Stretch Reflex was dampened.

That means that essentially the longer the weight sits motionless on your chest or in sitting on a box. the heaver it becomes. That because there is no recoil (no Stretch Reflex).

This is easy to determine. Bench Press with a Touch and Go. Then Bench Press after pausing the weight on your chest for let say 10 seconds. See how that works.

After all, their processes and ways of training have been used in Supertraining, for example. Also, results speak for themselves.

The Westside Protocol is definitely an effective program. I am a proponent of it or a Conjugate Training Method that inciroirates: Maximum Strength, Power and Hypertrophy. Simmons: Max Effort, Speed Training (actually Power Training) and Repetition Method

Another part of the Westside success is due to his recruitment of some great Strength Athletes and he and they pushed each other.

As one Football Coach once said, "Winning is all about luck. The team luck enough to have the best player, wins."

A third factor is, "Better Lifting Through Chemistry". When stacked with an exceptional lifter/athlete, their performance is magnified with anabolics.

At least Simmons is upfront about it, "I use mostly anabolics like Equipoise and Laurabolin until it's time for a competition, and then I do the harder androgens." Source: The Mad Monk of Power Lifting | T Nation

 

[Hardartery]

The weak point is not the first third of the lift for most lifters in the Bench Press. It is fairly univesally at the transition from pecs to triceps, typically several inches off of the chest. Don't believe me? Walk into any gym and watch the bros benching. Every fail and "It's all you bro!" starts at that transition. It has to be REALLY over their max to hit the chest and stick, or dropped. The Bench shirt certainy helps with the first third, but it is much more useful as a tool to improve acceleration off the chest to blow through that sticking point.
It should be noted, elite benchers get as much as 400 pounds from a shirt, not 100 or less. Mendy talks about it openly in an video talking to Ric Drasin. 200 lbs is kind of a minimum for a shirt, or you're doing something wrong with the shirt.
oThe argument about bar path is silly. No disrespect to Dr. Tom, he's a fine guy and by no means stupid or misinformed. What you do with your elbows has a direct impact on bar path. If you tuck them a la Westside, you push a straighter bar path instead of the arc. The straight path is the sortest, and for obvious reasons this can be advantageous, just like an arch. Triceps are usually the weak point for any lifter in the bench, and that's for obvious reasons. The chest can progress a lot faster than the triceps, in most people. It is aso a lot easier on the shoulders to tuck the elbows and push straight up. I'll repeat, as an old guy, I can tell you a straight up and down bar path with some degree of tuck is a lot more shoulder friendly than an arc and a 1980's elbow flare. It can also pretty easily increase your bench if you execute it right. As an extra aside, you will find that Conjugate afficionados will identify that arc with an anterior delt deficiency, not an advanced lifter method.

 

[Antti]

I doubt that Bridges and Kazmaier triceps were "relatively weak compared to their shoulders.



Ariely and McLaughlin's research indicate the sticking points for most Raw Lifters have a similar Sticking Point.

Secondly, the Sticking Point for most individual in an Ascending Strength Curve Movement is in the first third of the movement.

Individual who have a problem with locking the weight out in a Raw Bench Press, have a triceps issue; which wasn't the case for Bridges nor Kazamier.



And what might those cue be?



Some of the Westside Training Protocol is based on good science.

Some Simmons information is misinformation. I have no idea of how he come up with it. Regardless of where it came from, science and anecdotal data do not substantiate his claim.

Two Examples

1) Driving the Bar Straight Up rather than in a arc.

a) In a Raw Bench Press, the research and anecdotal data have clearly demonstrate arcing the weight back up is more effective comparted to trying to push the weight back up.

Even Novice Lifter had a bit of an arch in driving the weight up.

I doubt the individual who believe they are driving the weight straight up, really are; they just feel/think they are. As mentioned, it doesn't matter what you feel/believer. What matter is what is actually occurring.

2) Simmons has stated the in a Paused Movement, the Stretch Reflex last longer than 4 seconds.

Research by Wilson (cited in Supertraining/Siff & Verkhoshansky) stated that the Stretch Reflex can last up to 4 second before is it complete gone.

Wilson research determined that after 1 second, around 50% of the Stretch Reflex was dampened.

That means that essentially the longer the weight sits motionless on your chest or in sitting on a box. the heaver it becomes. That because there is no recoil (no Stretch Reflex).

This is easy to determine. Bench Press with a Touch and Go. Then Bench Press after pausing the weight on your chest for let say 10 seconds. See how that works.



The Westside Protocol is definitely an effective program. I am a proponent of it or a Conjugate Training Method that inciroirates: Maximum Strength, Power and Hypertrophy. Simmons: Max Effort, Speed Training (actually Power Training) and Repetition Method

Another part of the Westside success is due to his recruitment of some great Strength Athletes and he and they pushed each other.

As one Football Coach once said, "Winning is all about luck. The team luck enough to have the best player, wins."

A third factor is, "Better Lifting Through Chemistry". When stacked with an exceptional lifter/athlete, their performance is magnified with anabolics.

At least Simmons is upfront about it, "I use mostly anabolics like Equipoise and Laurabolin until it's time for a competition, and then I do the harder androgens." Source: The Mad Monk of Power Lifting | T Nation

If Kazmaier and Bridges didn't have relatively weaker triceps, compared to be shoulders and the chest, why was their bar path such?

The bar path always seeks the strongest muscle groups on a really heavy lift, always. This may be the root of the misunderstanding. I'm not sure if I'm just not fluent enough in English to get the message through, even if I repeatedly try.

That Kazmaier and Bridges had successful lifts or had sticking points close to he chest doesn't mean their triceps weren't relatively weaker. They were good enough after the chest and shoulders most of the job and built enough momentum.

Also, their method obviously worked for them and I'm not claiming that they should have bench presses differently. However, I claim that it's not so black and white, of even useful to concentrate on this.

When giving cues on the bench press I typically always start with the tight setup, positioning of the scapulae and the feet, a good grip on the bar. I also usually need to cue to move the elbows in a little. After that I often have to tell to keep a minimal range of motion instead of overextension. With more experienced lifters it is always individual.

I always give only the cues that are needed, on something that I see as the biggest thing to improve at the moment. I have never had to tell someone to push the bar closer to the face or away from the face. I do discuss the subject with the trainees or my training partners at times.

Yes, Simmons isn't always right. No one is. Doesn't mean he is blatantly wrong in this case. Every case is judged on its own merit.

Yes, it doesn't matter what we believe happens. This stands for the cue as well. The bar path is neither a 90° way up or a 45° way up, it is somewhere in between, and where exactly depends on which muscle groups are the strongest; what the lifter has trained the best and what his genetic predisposition is like. I don't believe it's of any use to spend a big deal of attention on it for the vast majority.

Yes, the Westside success story has many elements. Impossible to say which variables are the most important one. I think their glory also has startup fade a bit since they haven't moved seriously into raw lifting, but perhaps this is just something what it looks like in my personal bubble.

Last, I'll also come back to the mention of typical bench press injuries, like in my original post in the thread.. Go onto any forum, any gym, and listen to the horror stories of muscles torn in the bench press. The lamentations on how they can no longer bench press. How often is it the triceps? Why? What inclinations would this have on training the bench press, if any?

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

Based on the information that you provided, we must assume that Bridges and Kazmaier had weak triceps; which doesn't make sense

I'm a bit surprised... how come the flaring of elbows doesn't mean anything? When talking of squat it seems to be that the body finds the strongest muscles, why not in bench? And how come McLaughlin makes better analysis based on video apparently, than Simmons who has probably watched up close a hundred lifters? How the trajectory would change if the novice lifter was told to develop back and triceps instead of pecs? Keep the elbows close and so on?

And how Kazmaier has passed his benches? 10cm or more distance in elevation between start and stop? He must have pulled his scapula back at some point after moving the bar. What would the track look like if he had the right posture from the beginning?

Surely when you keep kinetic energy in the bar while moving it horizontally you can shift the direction of the bar when you finally have the strength to do it. But is that the best, safest or strongest way to do it?

Of course I'm a total amateur. I don't even understand the difference between tucking in and flaring. Why it's done? The bones are the same length. Elbows remain under the bar. When elevation difference between bar and shoulders stays the same the length of triceps stay the same? The length of deltoid is shorter when you flare. The pecs? When you flare the pecs go longer. But if you pull the scapula and flare the length remains the same?

So the difference is activation of deltoid? But at the same time you risk rotator cuffs?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

If Kazmaier and Bridges didn't have relatively weaker triceps, compared to be shoulders and the chest, why was their bar path such?

The bar path always seeks the strongest muscle groups on a really heavy lift, always.

The Path of Least Resistance

The most effective method of moving more weight in taking the path of least resistance.

Body's Center of Gravity, COG

That is one of the fundamental keys to keeping the bar movement as close to the Body's Center of Gravity as possible.

Bridges Change in Bar Path

As McLaughlin's research demonstrated, Bridges increased his Bench Press by finding a more efficient Bar Path; "Technique is everything!"

That Kazmaier and Bridges had successful lifts or had sticking points close to he chest doesn't mean their triceps weren't relatively weaker.

Sticking Points

Let's go over this information once more. Sticking Points for Ascending Strength Curves are angle specific. The Sticking Point (Ariely and McLaughlin) are approximately around the first third of the movement.

That is true for he majority of lifters. That having to do with the physics of the movement.

With that said, there are always some exception to the rule, as with you being weak in the lockout.

Cueing

The cueing should be specific to how the bar need to be driven up, as well. The effective bar path need to be in an arc.

I have never had to tell someone to push the bar closer to the face or away from the face.

Lack of Knowledge

The information presented is something new and unknown to you. That is one of the reason that you never have mentioned the driving the bar path up in an arc. You cannot teach what you don't know.

I do discuss the subject with the trainees or my training partners at times.

Discussing It With Trainees and Training Partners

Trainees don't know anything. Some of the information that you are imparting on the is good and some is misinformation.

Based on the information you have provided, you Training Partners lack knowledge in this area. You keep feed on each other, reinforcing incorrect information.

Yes, Simmons isn't always right. No one is. Doesn't mean he is blatantly wrong in this case.

Great To Know

Precisely what research data or empirical data demonstrate Simmons information supersedes research form a former Powerlifter with a PhD in Bio-Mechanics.

The irony is that Simmons is well read. Yet he often touts misinformation and essentially backs it up with, "Because I said so." The same is true with Mark Rippetoe.

Rambling

Your last paragraph was rambling sentences with no destination. You are essentially have a conversation with yourself. That's cool.

Summary

1) The information that I presented was based on research data.

What you other do with it is up to you.

2) Like most, my objective is to provide other with information that is beneficial.

Reputable information is best documented with research data that validates it.

3) I have little patients for individual who question the validity of great research and counter it and replace it with what they think or feel.

All truth passes through three stages.

First, it is ridiculed.

Second, it is violently opposed.

Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

At this point you are stuck is the Second Stage; a mudhole.

That is an issue with many individual. Some eventually get out of the mudhole, while other just sit and spin their wheels in the same place. It your call.

At this point there is no need with any further discussion on this topic; it not going anywhere.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Of course I'm a total amateur. I don't even understand the difference between tucking in and flaring.

"No one ever got dumber from reading a book (research article, etc)."
Alwyn Cosgrove, Strength Coach

It is hard to explain something to someone on any topic with a very limited knowledge base. It is a long tedious process.

You need to make an investment in increasing you knowledge base.

This is best accomplished by reading good research on the topic you have question about.

There are also some good video with reputable scientist in the field that can get you up to speed.

We all been there before. How far you increase you knowledge base depend on the amount of time and effort you want to put into it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The weak point is not the first third of the lift for most lifters in the Bench Press. It is fairly univesally at the transition from pecs to triceps, typically several inches off of the chest.

The Transition Point

The transition point is the first third where the Sticking Point is. Duh!

 

[Antti]

The Path of Least Resistance

The most effective method of moving more weight in taking the path of least resistance.

Body's Center of Gravity, COG

That is one of the fundamental keys to keeping the bar movement as close to the Body's Center of Gravity as possible.

Bridges Change in Bar Path

As McLaughlin's research demonstrated, Bridges increased his Bench Press by finding a more efficient Bar Path; "Technique is everything!"


Sticking Points

Let's go over this information once more. Sticking Points for Ascending Strength Curves are angle specific. The Sticking Point (Ariely and McLaughlin) are approximately around the first third of the movement.

That is true for he majority of lifters. That having to do with the physics of the movement.

With that said, there are always some exception to the rule, as with you being weak in the lockout.

Cueing

The cueing should be specific to how the bar need to be driven up, as well. The effective bar path need to be in an arc.


Lack of Knowledge

The information presented is something new and unknown to you. That is one of the reason that you never have mentioned the driving the bar path up in an arc. You cannot teach what you don't know.



Discussing It With Trainees and Training Partners

Trainees don't know anything. Some of the information that you are imparting on the is good and some is misinformation.

Based on the information you have provided, you Training Partners lack knowledge in this area. You keep feed on each other, reinforcing incorrect information.



Great To Know

Precisely what research data or empirical data demonstrate Simmons information supersedes research form a former Powerlifter with a PhD in Bio-Mechanics.

The irony is that Simmons is well read. Yet he often touts misinformation and essentially backs it up with, "Because I said so." The same is true with Mark Rippetoe.

Rambling

Your last paragraph was rambling sentences with no destination. You are essentially have a conversation with yourself. That's cool.

Summary

1) The information that I presented was based on research data.

What you other do with it is up to you.

2) Like most, my objective is to provide other with information that is beneficial.

Reputable information is best documented with research data that validates it.

3) I have little patients for individual who question the validity of great research and counter it and replace it with what they think or feel.

All truth passes through three stages.

First, it is ridiculed.

Second, it is violently opposed.

Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

At this point you are stuck is the Second Stage; a mudhole.

That is an issue with many individual. Some eventually get out of the mudhole, while other just sit and spin their wheels in the same place. It your call.

At this point there is no need with any further discussion on this topic; it not going anywhere.

I have been well aware of the Bridges' research for a long while. You, yourself, have posted about this before. A similar discussion, or a simulacrum of one, has been had before. Maybe even multiple times.

Also, my training partners or who have discussion in the matter do not lack it either. I would ask you to not make such assumptions. Myself, if I discuss the subject with a trainee, bring up that there are different viewpoints on the matter, what are the merits of each side, and how I see it. With my training partner, we agree to disagree.

You mention research data many times. A single case of research data. Even now, some of us would like to discuss this subject in order to bring more light into it, without dogmatically sticking into only a single piece of it. But no.

I wouldn't discount Simmons' scientific credentials. Take the stretch reflex again, for example. Citating just one piece of research that is in opposition to Simmons' own does not refute Simmons' research. If anything one would try to understand how the studies were made, what similarities they had, what made them have different results. Not cling dogmatically to just one piece.

When it comes to cues, I'll say it again, if it doesn't need to be said, I won't say it. Any cue. If I see a perfect bench press from a trainee, I stay silent. If I see just little problems, I mostly let the trainee try to fix it herself. The bar path is usually just fine. More than it, with the bench, I see problems with side to side movement, which I point out.

When it comes to my "rambling sentences with no destination", I'm not at all certain that the meaning was lost for the majority of readers. Why so, that is another case.

I do not oppose the research. I try to refine it.

 

[Hardartery]

The Transition Point

The transition point is the first third where the Sticking Point is. Duh!

I appreciate the brevity of the response. However..you stated that it was DURING the first third, not at the 1/3rd distance point, which is saying that it happens between the chest and 1/3rd of the distance. It doesn't. It usually happens at the transition, which is actually a little past 1/3rd in some lifters depending on setup. Also, I feel a need to point out that your point on maintaining the weight in relation to the ceter of gravity has zero application in benching, laying on a bench means that the weight is maintained along the axis of maximal force. Which is to say, the bar path is going to follow your muscular strength and deficiencies, as you naturally tend to shift the load onto the dominant muscles. Researched data is great, but but it is also frequently used to draw incorrect conclusions. I seriously doubt that anyone reads more research than Louie Simmons, anyone. He also has real world experience guiding his application. I don't agree with everything he says and does, but I take it seriously and always listen to what he has to say about lifting. I have seen plenty of advanced lifters benching more than Kaz or Bridges use something closer to the "Novice" arc described by McLaughlin. That doesn't mean that he's totally wrong or that no one should use that arc. It does mean that an observational work is limited to what it observed and should not occupy to big a place in overall understanding or methodology.

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

Cueing

The cueing should be specific to how the bar need to be driven up, as well. The effective bar path need to be in an arc.

When you push the bar away you tend to flare the elbows, the bar would move over shoulder.

Only some time ago I learnt to push myself away from the bar, like it should be done. So first of all, not pushing the bar away.

For me it feels that the hands will stay much lower, and elbows stay closer to the body when I wave these pieces of string in the air. Despite that it looks like I have elbows wide in bench videos. The bar hits just below chest or just touches chest, but still bar path looks relatively straight to me. Some videos are in insta. In the latest video I use just about illegal width, roughly 10cm wider than normal. So it's not entirely comparable.

Feel free to bash me into a crack in the earth. Here's a 5kg pr after roughly 15 years. Done after max squat. And the latest is 2,5kg more, illegal.

 

[jca17]

@kennycro@@aol.com

Rambling

Your last paragraph was rambling sentences with no destination. You are essentially have a conversation with yourself. That's cool.

It's been years since I've been on this forum, but why do you still treat people so condescendingly? Why do you have to be such a jerk in these conversations? Snide smileys as you mock others, bulleted lists of YOUR opinions, as if you are objective (you don't have to be a post-modernist to acknowledge that none of us are objective).

3) I have little patients for individual who question the validity of great research and counter it and replace it with what they think or feel.

Many others have little patience of supposedly "great research" with small sample sizes that are out of date in a decade or two, while proponents mocked doubters the whole time. Science generally moves forward by those who are SKEPTICAL of the explanatory power of the current status quo, not the ones who parrot it.

It's not irrelevant that many people have brought up lifting longevity when discussing why one would prefer not flaring the elbows. Also, I'd be interested in seeing the bar path on 85% max lifts by these guys. People do things on max attempts that are not good for the body but can help them get through to make a lift. Kaz's shoulders are shot, of course from a lot of things together, but listen to his injury reports from some of his max attempt bench press. Not that it's unique to him, but all of this is very relevant for choosing what bar path to follow for those of us not setting world records.