Barbell Benchmark weights for various lifts.

[MikeTheBear]

I think a half gallon a day is way (or whey?) more reasonable.

I see what you did there.

I could never get stronger drinking a gallon of milk a day. I wouldn't have time to train as I would spend half the day on the crapper as my digestive system would tell me what it thinks of lactose.

 

[MikeTheBear]

my 'life' training (wood chopping)

Isn't that supposed to be the best workout? I'm serious.

Thanks MikeTheBear.

You're welcome. Just don't walk buck naked through your gym, and if you do, no posting selfies.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Plus high rep back squats have been building size/physique and body armor type grit longer than most training programs have been around (even John Grimek used the protocol for a while, adding 12 pounds of muscle to an already muscular frame in a few months, before he decided thighs bigger than his waist is bad symmetry haha).

Based on what I've read, the quads respond very well to high reps because in the average person they are composed 50% fast-twitch fibers and 50% slow-twitch. Contrary to the standard broscience, slow-twitch fibers do have some capacity for strength, so high rep squats will also build strength.

 

[Kozushi]

I reread PTTP two days ago, and it's interesting how it seems to poo-poo high rep endurance training in favour of questing for maximum strength. Of course, Pavel has a different message in S&S where strength endurance comes to the fore through the very high reps with the swings and the long time under tension with the TGUs. As a judo wrestler I can say with some confidence that developing muscular endurance with weight training is very important for lasting out the opponent. This is something that makes S&S so appealing to me, but also bodyweight exercises like dips and chinups where you do them slowly, as many as possible, and for as long as possible. There are huge benefits in this both for judo and for S&S I've found. Maximum strength is a different story. I've never really trained for this, and right now my laughably light 330lbs deadlifting is a testament to this.

 

[wespom9]

One thing I'd like to point out - Pavel's company is StrongFirst. It's not StrongOnly, or any other variation. As the front page used to say, "Strength is the master quality". Strength comes first. Higher strength leads to:
Power (various points on the force-velocity curve; O Lifts strength-speed, hammer/discus throwing speed-strength, etc)
Power endurance (repeated powerful efforts (100-200m sprints
Strength endurance (higher distance runs easy example)
etc.

All those qualities are built by getting strength first. There is no power or endurance with no strength. 1000 punches is nothing if you hit with 1N of force. Really...what is your goal? Do you want to sprint 100m? Then high rep swings for 30+ seconds probably won't give the best adaptation. High load, 5 explosive reps with longer rests will be closer. Vice versa for strength endurance (and remember that your conditioning may not have to be sport specific!! see recent article). Get strong and then train the adaptation you are looking for

 

[Steve Freides]

I reread PTTP two days ago, and it's interesting how it seems to poo-poo high rep endurance training in favour of questing for maximum strength. Of course, Pavel has a different message in S&S where strength endurance comes to the fore through the very high reps with the swings and the long time under tension with the TGUs.

Part 1 in my mind is PTTP, a strength-focused text. Part 2 is the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book, which introduced us to many things about the kettlebell, including strength-endurance.

This combination, low-rep training for limit strength _plus_ higher rep training for strength-endurance, has been our formula for health/fitness/GPP since day one, at least in my mind - I've been doing kettlebell swings since 2001. No one says it's the end-all, be-all for every human being - athletes need to adjust their training for maximum effect on their individual, sport-specific performance - but it's certainly a great place to start and, for many, all we'll ever need.

@Kozushi, you sound to me like you're thinking about these things very well for yourself, finding the right combination of movements and training plans to keep you healthy, feeling good, and improving on the mat.

-S-

 

[MikeTheBear]

Part 1 in my mind is PTTP, a strength-focused text. Part 2 is the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book, which introduced us to many things about the kettlebell, including strength-endurance.

This combination, low-rep training for limit strength _plus_ higher rep training for strength-endurance, has been our formula for health/fitness/GPP since day one, at least in my mind - I've been doing kettlebell swings since 2001. No one says it's the end-all, be-all for every human being - athletes need to adjust their training for maximum effect on their individual, sport-specific performance - but it's certainly a great place to start and, for many, all we'll ever need.

Yes, I remember this as well. Pavel recommended alternating two weeks of PttP with two weeks of kettlebell work. Repeat as needed.

 

[Kozushi]

Part 1 in my mind is PTTP, a strength-focused text. Part 2 is the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book, which introduced us to many things about the kettlebell, including strength-endurance.

This combination, low-rep training for limit strength _plus_ higher rep training for strength-endurance, has been our formula for health/fitness/GPP since day one, at least in my mind - I've been doing kettlebell swings since 2001. No one says it's the end-all, be-all for every human being - athletes need to adjust their training for maximum effect on their individual, sport-specific performance - but it's certainly a great place to start and, for many, all we'll ever need.

@Kozushi, you sound to me like you're thinking about these things very well for yourself, finding the right combination of movements and training plans to keep you healthy, feeling good, and improving on the mat.

-S-

Ah, I never bought the RKC book! I thought it was just his "early thinking" on kettlebells which was surpassed first by ETK and then by S&S. In any case, the case for athletic endurance is made clearly in these two latter books. In PTTP he has a diagram showing how maximum strength muscle is different from high rep endurance muscle. This of course tells me right away that they are different muscles and therefore need to be trained differently.

While I didn't get into SF training coming from nowhere, since I had been doing bodyweight and judo training forever, my first SF program was (and will always be) S&S, and I do most certainly think that it has given me the strength to progress into other things like deadlifts, kettlebell presses, and elite level judo (I joined an elite level club a year ago - didn't quit my old club though, of course!)

Kettlebells seem to be particularly good for strength-endurance due to their involvement of the whole body at once and to the violence with which we can swing them due to their greater movement arc than dumbbells. This made me wonder about whether a steel mace with the long handle is a further progression along this line of training, but it would seem that the handle is too long for rising motion swings; the kettlebell handle is as long as it safely can be to fit under the legs.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Ah, I never bought the RKC book! I thought it was just his "early thinking" on kettlebells which was surpassed first by ETK and then by S&S.

This is an interesting question. The workouts in RKC are based more on high rep work. The sample programs are based on military training and GS training. For someone looking to do lots of reps non-stop, the information is helpful.

 

[LukeV]

For the last couple of years I have been limited mainly to hypertrophy-style workouts (10-15+ rep sets) due to joint issues with heavier weights. (The exception to this is deadlifts where I mainly rely on Rule of 10.) This is just observation but on occasions when I do go heavier my 5RM and 3RM does not seem to have been negatively effected by the higher rep training (in fact they stay pretty much as Jim Wendler's 1RM calculator predicts from my 10RM which is higher than it was when doing 3-5 rep sets like I used to) but my 1RM has definitely suffered. So my higher rep (10+) training has still translated to strength gains down to about 3 rep sets. (Higher reps has also built some muscle.)

 

[IonRod]

Those look like pretty solid barbell goals, along the lines of what I've heard many coaches say is the point of diminishing returns for most athletes apart from the strength-sports.
They are also the numbers that many novice barbell programs tend to indicate they will get you too.

I agree that the military press is one of the only purely grind strength kettlebell moves comparable to barbell grinds. Other possibilities include renegade row (recommended to use a stable platform for off hand instead of a kettlebell for safety), double kettlebell front squats, if you go full range of motion: deep and upright torso.
Then again, we also have side press and bent press. So all the varieties of one arm pressing are great grinds with the proprioceptive feedback of the kettlebell.

I wouldn't count the curl as a good kettlebell grind. The curl is "imposed" on the kettlebell, rather than the kettlebell being a natural choice for the motion. The crush grip or goblet grip curl are solid, but not ideal. With dumbells, you can train each arm separately, whereas with kettlebell you need to intentionally loosen your grip so that the handle can slide, and the bell runs into your forearm towards the end range of motion if you try one arm at a time. If you want to train both arms at the same time, then a barbell or curling bar are the better choice and allow you to progress the load more specifically. They also allow call for shoulders more externally rotated, which is nice. Kettlebell curls are better than no curls, but they are a side dish of the kettlebell world, and one of the moves where they are probably the least ideal implement (compared to dumbells, barbells, and just plain chin-ups).

An interesting counter argument about KB bicep curls: Kettlebells Beat Dumbbells for Biceps | T Nation

 

[jca17]

Thats an interesting article. I hadnt seen most of those variations. Since I like to crush my grip on curls and also use full ROM (fully extend arm, isometrically contract biceps at top), I wont be using those variations soon, but they look good if I ever want to focus on biceps hypertrophy.
Another arrow for the kettlebell quiver.
Great find!

 

[Kozushi]

I was doing yard work today all day, and I was thinking about how a 1 rep maximum doesn't happen a lot doing yard work, or often while doing physical labour, but it's rather the endurance to keep working all day that counts more - with of course a respectable amount of strength to back this up. This is very much the case with sports too and certainly with my judo. To be sure a high 1 rep max is one piece in the puzzle, but without muscular and cardio-vascular endurance to boot, then forget about actually being able to do anything for real.

 

[LukeV]

For the last couple of years I have been limited mainly to hypertrophy-style workouts (10-15+ rep sets) due to joint issues with heavier weights. (The exception to this is deadlifts where I mainly rely on Rule of 10.) This is just observation but on occasions when I do go heavier my 5RM and 3RM does not seem to have been negatively effected by the higher rep training (in fact they stay pretty much as Jim Wendler's 1RM calculator predicts from my 10RM which is higher than it was when doing 3-5 rep sets like I used to) but my 1RM has definitely suffered. So my higher rep (10+) training has still translated to strength gains down to about 3 rep sets. (Higher reps has also built some muscle.)

Actually on reviewing my training logs I got this wrong. Higher rep training has translated to strength gains down to 5 reps. My 3 rep and 1 rep maxes have definitely suffered

 

[MikeTheBear]

Actually on reviewing my training logs I got this wrong. Higher rep training has translated to strength gains down to 5 reps. My 3 rep and 1 rep maxes have definitely suffered

I have linked to this study before but will do so again because the results are very interesting. I don't know if the study participants were completely new to training, which would make a difference. Also, the volume is crazy even with the very low intensity. So the study has flaws, but still interesting.

The effect of high rep training on strength and size