Question Benefits of goblet sq, swing, get up

Discussion in 'Simple and Sinister FAQ Questions' started by Joe_Fitz, Sep 28, 2019.

  1. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    Hi all,

    First time poster.

    I refer to the following quote in the 'Everything is a nail' article (link below):

    "Dan John and I were waxing poetic about the sheer perfection of a program of swings, goblet squats, and get-ups"

    Everything (and Every Trainee) Is A Nail | StrongFirst

    I'm interested in doing the S&S program but I can't find an exhaustive detailed list of these benefits anywhere, nor an exhaustive detailed list of the benefits of S&S. Can someone point me in the right direction or can we use this thread to detail both please?
  2. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor


    1. Welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

    2. The article explains quite a bit about the varied kinds of people and activities S&S will benefit. Please read again. I will spare you quoting portions of it here.

    3. We have a thread here

    "I Achieved S & S Simple! Here's My Story"

    in which people tell about their journey to achieving Simple, and about the benefits they received. Please read that. There are currently over 400 posts there - of course, some are comments on the stories told, but there are plenty of success stories for you to read.

    4. You may also wish to look at the two sections of our forum containing training logs. Many people follow Simple and Sinister and details their experiences.

  3. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    @Steve Freides

    I appreciate the quick reply, thank you.

    2. I re-read, the benefits listed are very high level, I thought there might be a detailed list somewhere

    3&4. I'll look through these, thanks for the suggestion

    Personally I'm on a routine of the military press and deadlift, and I GTG with various stretching goals. I'm very reluctant to change this unless I can be convinced of the benefits (stated in the original thread question). Occam's razor has impacted on me greatly.

    On a side note, I've spent as long time reading on this forum and your replies are always very helpful and abundant, they are really appreciated Steve, hopefully you're told that often
  4. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    @Joe_Fitz, thank you for saying thank you. :)

    Programs that target General Physical Preparedness don't, by definition, target specifics, rather they target improving everything or at least a broad range of things. S&S is a GPP program. My favorite personal example is having gone from 2 pullups to 12 pullups without every training pullups while I practice PTTP by the book, doing barbell deadlifts and one-arm, barbell side presses. The point here is that I got stronger in a way that carried over to things I didn't even train, and that's very different from an exercise or a program that targets specific things.

    In general terms, a lot of what we offer at StrongFirst is for the purpose of improving everything about a trainee, or at least a wide range of things. We prefer to leave sport-specific training to the practice of one's chosen sport and/or to things recommended by a sport-specific coach. And if one is fortunate enough to work with people who are both expert trainers at specific sports _and_ experts in StrongFirst GPP, one is fortunate indeed. Two that immediately come to mind are Senior Instructor @Mikeperry and Master Instructor @Pavel Macek, both of whom work with fighters regularly.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it - if your current program is working for you, stick with it. I have gone for long periods of time with no "conditioning" work except walking a few miles most days, and doing some sort of overhead press and a barbell deadlift. It's a solid approach.

    Let's turn the conversation back to you - rather than talk about what S&S might do or not do for you, let's ask: What do you want to accomplish? Do you play a sport or study a martial art regularly and is your goal to improve that? Do you want to do better at the next Tactical Strength Challenge, or a powerlifting meet, or a rucking event? Tell us more about where you've come from, where you are, and where you'd like to go, and perhaps we can be helpful to you.

  5. Bauer

    Bauer More than 500 posts

    Hey @Joe_Fitz , welcome to the forum!

    Have a look at this article:
    Every Joint. Every Day. The Elegance of Simple and Sinister | StrongFirst

    S+S loads all major joints in almost every angle and promotes joint health this way. (I would add arm bars for shoulder extension.) The warm up and the stretches add to its' allroundness.

    And in the first chapters of Easy Strength there are really interesting infos on GPP which made me appreciate the elegance of Simple and Sinister even more.Because S&S trains different energy systems, different muscle fibers and different planes of motion with only 3 strength exercises. The swing is a quick lift and the TGU a slow grind. Swings done the S&S way train the alactic, aerobic and the glycotic energy systems. The swing is pull and a hinge, the TGU a bit of everything but kind of a press and a carry, and the Goblet Squat is a squat and a kind of pull if you add the curls. S&S focuses more on anti-rotational stability than other programs.

    The stretches help restore or maintain mobility or at least flexibiliy. (And, according to Easy Strength, might actually improve hypertrophy and strength).

    However, if you are doing PTTP or a PTTP like program you might just stay with it. Dan John recommends 2-week block training, alternating 2 weeks of PTTP with 2 weeks of S&S (done for at least a couple of months). The idea is that you will build newer qualites quicker during a given block than you will lose qualities from the other block - allowing for progress both in limit strength (pttp) and power, conditioning and stability (s&s).
    Billy59 and Oscar like this.
  6. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @joe fitz based on your current program, this is what S&S might give you:
    • You will learn to use kettlebells
    • Your conditioning will improve, if you are not doing much now.
    • Your mobility might improve from the squats and TGU
    • You probably wont loose much ground on the DL and press. You can be one cycle away from where you are now.
    • It will be practical like your current program probably is.
    • It might be better for body composition than what you are doing. Might.
    • You will feel good.
    These are just ideas based on the little info you gave.

    If you like kettlebells, give it a go. It is similar in spirit to what you are doing. If you dont, stick with the barbell.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    Billy59 likes this.
  7. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    Firstly, thank you for the replies all, you've given me food for thought, come the weekend I'll be able to think about them properly.

    Answering the questions in turn (please bare with me, I'll reply as quick as I can).

    My history: boxing and martial arts, lots of training to failure for 8 odd years (because I'm really smart), which works for about 6 week blocks before stopping, at which point I re-jigged the routine and exercise, which has effectively lead to no continuity or gain in any one. So, currently I'm weak and poor flexibility, cardio is bad also

    Goals: GPP as described by Steve, I want to focus on few exercises (for continuity) which have the most transfer to other exercises. Also want to improve endurance and flexibility, I believe this is covered by getting as strong as possible in the press and deadlift (not sure about the low bar squat yet), and GTG with flexibility goals (i.e. touch toes). Anecdotally this has always improved my chins and swings. I've also read an article about Absolute strength (on strong first website) which mentioned a power lifter excelling at the snatch test having not touched a Kettlebell for a year preceding.

    Also, I have no competition or deadline which really doesn't help, I'd love to find something to train for

    I'll consider your other answers, once again - thank you so much for taking the time to help me
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  8. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    S&S excels in 3 things: it teaches you to be consistent and to progress over time, it improves mobility and it gives you some cardio benefits. It sounds like a good fit.
    Bauer, offwidth and Steve Freides like this.
  9. Bauer

    Bauer More than 500 posts

    S&S is a great programme. Just make sure to read the book carefully a couple of times and not to push it or rush it. Same goes for PTTP. Both are Easy Strength style programs. S&S has some Easy Endurance built in, too. And they are a good fit with martial arts!

    And if you like GTG mobility then have a look at Original Strength resets (5 big resets + a ton of movement snacks on their youtube channel). Really good stuff to take the brakes off your body.
  10. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    I appreciate the help Steve. I went away and did some thinking. I've arrived at the conclusion that I should be building strength on a solid foundation of GPP, and that S&S is a solid approach to the latter. My hips and shoulders aren't in the best condition and racking up the weight before I fix that and mobility issues is just going to get me in trouble. I'm thinking about the long game.

    Thanks again, I hope you're doing well
  11. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    I had a look at the article you mentioned, didn't realise how much was packed into S&S. I also started reading Easy Strength (half way through) and can see what you meant about gaining a deeper understanding of GPP. your suggestion about cycling PTTP is a good one, one I will probably do.

    I couldn't believe what I was reading on Easy Strength, can't believe the approach works, it's so refreshing to see an approach which emphasizes technique as opposed to numbers and weights, made me excited. Thanks for your reply
    Bauer likes this.
  12. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    Thanks again. I'm going to give it a go. I think I can catch up to current strength (if I lose any). I appreciate the help
  13. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    Thank you
    Oscar likes this.
  14. Joe_Fitz

    Joe_Fitz Still New to StrongFirst Forum

    Thank you. Going to look at Original Strength Resets right now
    Bauer likes this.

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