Other/Mixed Best push exercise for upper body

[Anna C]

Thanks Anna! Why do you think the overhead press is better than the bench press? The load is much higher at pench pressing, like other said.
Whats your opinion on weighted push ups?
My goal is the maximal full-body strength.

OH press because with the overhead press you're supporting the weight with your whole body. But the bench press probably gives much of the same, with the greater loads and good use of full body tension and leg drive. Can you do both? I like the way the two are alternated with the Starting Strength program, at least for those with newbie gains to make. Past that and you really need more volume of each to make specific progress. Both can also be programmed in with StrongFirst's Reload program.

I don't have much opinion on weighted push-ups except that for most people the bench press will offer more precise load management and better range of motion. But if you don't have a bench and a safe set-up for solo training, I'd go with weighted push-ups.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I disagree with that, if you do the military press with a barbell and shrug at the top, your traps are involved and it prevents shoulder problems.
No I havent tried the floor press (didnt know that exercise). Is the range of motion not low? How is your opinion about it?

Ah, I never do the military press with a shrug: A shrug at the top will definitely get your traps involved! I'm not sure it's advantageous when it comes to maintaining the most stable position overhead but if it works for you then carry on.

Floor presses do have a shorter range of motion than the bench press for sure but they build a lot of strength through the most challenging range of the movement and develop pressing strength from a dead start (unlike the bench press, unless you do do pause bench presses).

Training my floor press strengthened my bench press and training my bench made my floor press stronger: They are both excellent movements and, although I prefer the bench press (set-up for the first rep is easier), I can press 10kg more in my floor press and I don't need a spotter because there's no way I'll get trapped under the bar.

The only real safety risk I've found with floor pressing is that if you give up on a weight and let your elbows drop suddenly, the bar will 'crash' and slam your elbows into the floor, potentially fracturing your wrists/forearms. This has never happened to me, but I'm always aware of it when performing heavier reps: I always make sure that as soon as I feel like I might be in any danger of getting too fatigued to lower the bar slowly and under complete control, I terminate the set.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Loaded pushups would be my vote

Why?

In my experience, overhead press has the least transfer to horizontal push or pull, and the least transfer to my day-to-day. I didn't appreciate this until I largely removed it from my regimen.

Loaded PUs to bench press is closed chain vs open. You can vary where you locate center of mass over your hands and get a variety of target effects on pecs, lats, arms.

It works your entire anterior - if a plank is good, a plank with a load is better.

You can rotate your hands to whatever angle is most effective for you, vs bench press where hands have to be perpendicular to the body.

You can do them on parallettes or pushup board for bigger ROM.

Bigger Scapular ROM than bench or OHP (in my opinion).


When it comes to building neck, traps, rear delts, nothing is going to beat pulling exercises. None of the big push movements is enough on its own for upper body development. Once I accepted this, it just made more sense to train horizontal push and pull, with overhead work being relegated to accessory status.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't remember Pavel saying that the dip is the best. Because something is "maybe" in some special circumstances, means nothing.

Just have a look at what the best of the best are doing in sport, whether it's the Olympics or some big money professional sports. I will quote Pavel from the linked article: " The bench press has a long record of building unbelievably strong upper bodies. Its invention was a strength game changer. Which is why serious power athletes have been benching, are benching, and will be benching."

First of all, it's not true that all serious power athletes bench.

The sport with the greatest emphasis on "power athletes", Olympic weightlifting, barely ever benches, if at all.

Fighters need upper body power and don't spend a lot of time benching, if at all.

Second, I think it's silly for the general population to map their fitness needs to what a subset of sports practitioners do.

Yes, the NFL has bench as part of the combine test. What NFL players do after they make it past the draft varies by position, and even the upper body dominant positions don't always use the bench, and do many non-orthodox activities (e.g. linebacker squat).

Gymnasts have amazing upper body strength. Do they spend a lot of time benching? No.

 

[watchnerd]

When it comes to building neck, traps, rear delts, nothing is going to beat pulling exercises.

The Klokov press would like a word with you:

 

[watchnerd]

I don't have much opinion on weighted push-ups except that for most people the bench press will offer more precise load management and better range of motion. But if you don't have a bench and a safe set-up for solo training, I'd go with weighted push-ups.

How does the bench allow a better range of motion than a weighted push up?

Scapular protraction is not even an option in the bench, while it is with the push up.

 

[Antti]

First of all, it's not true that all serious power athletes bench.

The sport with the greatest emphasis on "power athletes", Olympic weightlifting, barely ever benches, if at all.

Fighters need upper body power and don't spend a lot of time benching, if at all.

Second, I think it's silly for the general population to map their fitness needs to what a subset of sports practitioners do.

Yes, the NFL has bench as part of the combine test. What NFL players do after they make it past the draft varies by position, and even the upper body dominant positions don't always use the bench, and do many non-orthodox activities (e.g. linebacker squat).

Gymnasts have amazing upper body strength. Do they spend a lot of time benching? No.

Well, you better have a chat with Pavel since those are mostly his words, not mine.

But I'll answer with my own view so it doesn't appear I just appeal to an authority. Though I would expect that at this place certain words carry weight.

Weightlifters don't bench much, yes. Maybe they shouldn't at all. Maybe it's a good accessory lift.

In other sports, like in track & field, where we can hold the shot putters as even more of an example of a power athlete than the weightlifter, they do it a lot. For nothing? I wouldn't say so.

I have always found it strange that fighters do so little bench. Some do more of it, but some so little or not at all.

I could go on about general populace but the base of this thread is "maximal full-body strength", along the best press exercise.

With the NFL, and many other sports, I would argue that a certain baseline of strength is necessary. That is often best achieved with the big compound lifts, like the bench press.

I could also start listing sports where the bench press is surprisingly valued. Did you know that it isn't long ago when all top sprinters, like all six below a certain 100m time, could bench at least 300lbs? But it gets silly.

 

[watchnerd]

Well, you better have a chat with Pavel since those are mostly his words, not mine.

But I'll answer with my own view so it doesn't appear I just appeal to an authority. Though I would expect that at this place certain words carry weight.

Weightlifters don't bench much, yes. Maybe they shouldn't at all. Maybe it's a good accessory lift.

In other sports, like in track & field, where we can hold the shot putters as even more of an example of a power athlete than the weightlifter, they do it a lot. For nothing? I wouldn't say so.

I have always found it strange that fighters do so little bench. Some do more of it, but some so little or not at all.

I could go on about general populace but the base of this thread is "maximal full-body strength", along the best press exercise.

With the NFL, and many other sports, I would argue that a certain baseline of strength is necessary. That is often best achieved with the big compound lifts, like the bench press.

I could also start listing sports where the bench press is surprisingly valued. Did you know that it isn't long ago when all top sprinters, like all six below a certain 100m time, could bench at least 300lbs? But it gets silly.

Whether it's from Pavel or some other authority, I think declaring any exercise 'the best' without specifying a desired training outcome is fairly silly.

It makes for good blog copy to drive website traffic, though.

I could go on about general populace but the base of this thread is "maximal full-body strength", along the best press exercise.

Well the OP said "(no bench press, because i dont have one)".

 

[Anna C]

How does the bench allow a better range of motion than a weighted push up?

For me it feels like I push from a farther "hands back" position with the bench press than with the push-up. The pecs are more stretched at the start of the push. I suppose that's because my hands are wider and my back is arched, with bench press. I do push-ups as triceps push-ups with hands close and elbows going back. So it probably has more to do with how it's done (hand width, back position, etc.) than the exercise itself.

Another relevant factor is that women may have a range of motion limitation that men don't have when lowering chest to the floor.

 

[watchnerd]

For me it feels like I push from a farther "hands back" position with the bench press than with the push-up. The pecs are more stretched at the start of the push. I suppose that's because my hands are wider and my back is arched, with bench press. I do push-ups as triceps push-ups with hands close and elbows going back. So it probably has more to do with how it's done (hand width, back position, etc.) than the exercise itself.

Another relevant factor is that women may have a range of motion limitation that men don't have when lowering chest to the floor.

Okay, the breast variable (including with men) is hard to account for given differences in body types and sizes.

But regarding the rest of it:

• The stretch at the bottom, if important, can be replicated in a push up by doing deficit pushups (KB handles, off plates, etc)
• On the top, the bench can't enter scapular protraction (can't push as far up) as a push up because the scapula are pinned

For ease of loading and uniformity of technique, though, the bench has an edge.

 

[North Coast Miller]

For me, at the bottom of the ROM on a pushup the scapula elevates and retracts slightly. As I come up it depresses and protracts.

With a close grip I let my elbows come out a bit at the bottom, and then pull them in to initiate the push. My lats feel almost as activated as my pecs when I get back up.

I always use a pushup board or a bar slightly off the floor, mostly to accommodate my wrists, but also allows me to get my chest lower relative to my hands.

 

[watchnerd]

For me, at the bottom of the ROM on a pushup the scapula elevates and retracts slightly. As I come up it depresses and protracts.

Ditto.

The top range scapular protraction is apparently at odds with what is advised in the "StrongFirst" perfect push up, I guess because the end goal is a OAPU.

Personally, I think proper scapula movement training (especially for desk bound people) and health is more important than the full body tension skills that OAPU brings.

Most of the dedicated bodyweight schools of strength don't have OAPU is the end game movement, focusing instead on planche.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Ditto.

The top range scapular protraction is apparently at odds with what is advised in the "StrongFirst" perfect push up, I guess because the end goal is a OAPU.

Personally, I think proper scapula movement training (especially for desk bound people) and health is more important than the full body tension skills that OAPU brings.

Most of the dedicated bodyweight schools of strength don't have OAPU is the end game movement, focusing instead on planche.

One of the things I've come to visualize/internalize from some of my oddball lifting and day to day work is to express upper body force "through the armpits". This not only keeps my shoulders tight in the socket, but promotes movement of the socket itself overall = scapular movement. There are times when it pays to lock the scapula down a bit more, but that tends to only apply to very constrained movement patterns - ie bench press, OAPU.

I also tend to have more scapular movement when pulling than when pushing, but a lot of that depends on where the elbows are relative to the rib cage.

 

[Antti]

Whether it's from Pavel or some other authority, I think declaring any exercise 'the best' without specifying a desired training outcome is fairly silly.

It makes for good blog copy to drive website traffic, though.




Well the OP said "(no bench press, because i dont have one)".

Incidentally, in my original post in the thread I specifically argued against seeking a specific best exercise, and encouraged variation.

 

[watchnerd]

I also tend to have more scapular movement when pulling than when pushing, but a lot of that depends on where the elbows are relative to the rib cage.

I think this is normal.

The cue I use for both pushing and pulling to enforce protraction is to 'reach!'.

I have a hard time getting that feeling on barbell rows, though, having much better results either with unilateral weights, bodyweight, or bands/rings.