Big volumes and WSBB

Discussion in 'Barbell' started by Timo Keskitalo, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Timo Keskitalo

    Timo Keskitalo Triple-Digit Post Count

    Maybe you have an answer/opinion. I've read Louies articles from the old to new. I'm on year 2018 so maybe the answer is there, but I have some doubt. My question:

    Louie has mentioned a couple of times that to build your bench you could do following sets. Always to raise weight for a couple of weeks until you find your limit:
    Max 6
    Max 8
    Max 10
    6x6
    8x8
    10x10

    Would this be done instead of DE or ME? I remember/ guess that DE.

    Three weeks per set would feel reasonable, after that the weights don't rise very much. Maybe the multisets could be done longer.

    Is it even worth considering the same for squat? I have a fixation to do similar training to bench and squat and usually at the same time.

    In this case I'd be ready to overlap so that e.g. start with bench. When you go through max sets and start multi, you'd start the program for squat. But even like this the experiment would take 27 weeks. Is that 100% waste of time?

    And what if I'd bench illegal. Could it be started as special exercise after DE? I'd leave DE out only when starting multi sets? Or similarly if it was ment on ME.

    You could then apply the same for squat somehow. E.g. leave DE pull to do max sets and leave DE squat when doing multi sets. I'd do then more ME pulls. I haven't really done those now. Or maybe better to leave out DE SQ first?

    This way it wouldn't harm normal training so much. Only 9 weeks a move. I have a pretty strong reluctance to do 8x8 and 10x10 at the same time for both. Unnecessarily so?
     
  2. LukeV

    LukeV More than 300 posts

    I'm hoping I understand the program but 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 seem unnecessarily high in volume for a program with the objective of building strength. Does this form part of a broader cycle? Perhaps this is just the hypertrophy phase? To achieve 8x8 or 10x10 you're either going to be working with a low %RM or spending a long long time on rest periods. Either way scarcely efficient. Without knowing where you're at or what you've tried it's a bit hard to suggest something else but if you've got the time for lots of sets you could try Plan Strong. I got great results from it on bench and DL and your work sets will be at higher weight than you'll be at 8x8 or 10x10. Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  3. Antti

    Antti More than 2500 posts

    There have been two EliteFTS videos with JM Blakley as a guest recently. He was a great bench press specialist and trained at Westside, though I understand he didn't train strictly according to Simmons' methods.

    He did a lot of 6*6 training. Start with a 6RM weight for all sets and go up 2,5kg in weight when you hit it for all sets. Try to get at least one total rep more a day.

    But 6*6 wasn't what he thought best, it was what he could do for most of the time. He also did six triples before a meet. And he always did some heavy singles on each session.

    He didn't do any speed work, the other training day was spent on triceps. So that would put singles + 6*6 + accessories on ME day.
     
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  4. Timo Keskitalo

    Timo Keskitalo Triple-Digit Post Count

    I found some articles that say that it's DE.

    Speed Bench Workout

    Six Off-Season Bench Cycles to Replace Dynamic Effort Work

    The squat remains a mystery, or maybe not. Found some t-nation forums where someone else had same thought and was shot down. But for me it's an invitation to try it out. Unless someone says that I tried and failed.

    The idea would be to raise training volume. To be able to do a lot more work afterwards.

    Bodybuilding legend gironda would want his trainees do this stuff with even 15s rest. Crazy. The Gironda System | T Nation
     
  5. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I would default to always replace DE days between the two. I believe DE is only a replacement for a second ME day to avoid CNS issues. DeFranco's Westside for skinny bastards is popular for replacing the DE day with repetition method for increasing hypertrophy and this seems similar.

    If unable to get adequate volume from assistance work, replacing DE day with this seems similar to doing a day of 5/3/1 boring but big.

    I don't think I would worry about offsetting the squat and bench cycles and just keep it at 18 weeks instead of making it 27.
     
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  6. Timo Keskitalo

    Timo Keskitalo Triple-Digit Post Count

    Ok, thanks @Bro Mo! Maybe I'll just do it simultaneously.

    I have done a modification of Russian squat routine a few times, and at least once successfully, for bench and squat. I don't remember if I did deadlift. EdIT: in the past 10+ years ago. /END

    There you would go from 6x2x80% to 6x6x80% in six weeks and train once a week. I'm not aiming for any percentages this time. But the amount of reps is almost 3x in 10x10.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  7. Philippe Geoffrion

    Philippe Geoffrion More than 500 posts

    I’d say for most lifters, a volume day for bench would be of greater benefit than a D.E. Day, but I am faster than I am strong. Since the bench involves smaller muscle groups (and for other reasons like overall fatigue on your system) than a squat or deadlift, it can be trained with a bit more volume. Hypertrophy in the upper body seems to help my bench more than anything else really. But I’m also closer to fast on the speed vs strength continuum. As far as speed training goes, I’ve found jumping prior to lower body M.E. Lifts and throws or explosive pushups before bench to be adequate speed training.

    Westside is highly individual, as you’ll find if you explore any Westsider’s program. @kennycro@@aol.com will kill me but I am the opinion that D.E. Bench or squat days with accommodating resistance are more beneficial to a geared lifter as they unload the bottom, usually the key point of focus of a raw lifter. However, both squat and bench Gabe ascending strength curves, meaning as the bar ascends, the lift gets easier. A period of deceleration then occurs (like a sprinter crossing the finish line...you don’t just stop on a dime) thus the force required past the stocky region is decreased. Accommodating resistance is a way to combat this, thus requiring a lifter to produce more force during the entire rep length. Will this improve a raw lifters total is questionable in my eyes.

    as for the squat, this will be highly individualized. I’ve always seen Westside as advanced programming, namely because you have to understand how your body best responds to training to write your own Westside template. Do you thrive on volume/frequency/variety? Do you have adequate technique in the power lifts that you can abandon their practice for months? Of course D.E. Day can once again be subbed for a technique or volume day for squats and deads too. KK used 5x5 Olympic squats on his D.E. day and most westsiders don’t do any regular squats ever. I liked doing high bar squats on my volume (D.E) day and kept the overall percentage around 70-80% (Wendler recommended) and the reps to 3. I felt they were just like my regular low bar squat, but were easier on my spine, required less weight and trained my body through a disadvantaged position. This gave me a day to still practice my squat and obtain adequate volume.

    Westside is an awesome template to follow but it is all about tailoring it to your individuality. So know yourself and make a plan!
     
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  8. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Site Specific

    This doesn't make sense. I'm interesting in hearing why.

    Research shows adage about performing Squat as a means to trigger increasing upper body growth is a misnomer. The believe was/is that performing Squat or let's say Deadlifts increase testosterone, which it does.

    However, that increase in testosterone is site specific to the the muscle involved in the lower body not the upper body.

    Bikers and Sprinter

    In Dr Keith Barr's podcast the I posted a while back, Baar discussed the research on Bikers and Sprinter who training revolved around the development of lower body leg Strength, Power and Speed.

    Their focus was on decreasing upper body muscle mass/body weight. Doing so, allowed them to decrease their time.

    It amount to putting a huge engine in a small, lighter weight car, like a Hot Rod Dragster. It amount to a frame with tires on in an huge engine in the front and one small seat for the drive.

    The Bikers and Sprinters leg training increased the Limit Strength, Power, Speed and Muscle Mass (Sprinter's leg mass increase) without an increase in upper body mass.

    Increasing Bench Press Strength

    The same applies to increasing Limit Strength in the Bench Press. Squatting is going to increase your Squat and have some carry over to your Deadlift and other lower body leg exercises.

    The most effective method of increasing your Bench Press it to Bench Press or employ some type of similar Pressing Movement: Dips, Incline Press. Decline Press, Overhead Press. etc.

    Speed/Power Vs Limit Strength

    Some individual have more great Speed/Power than Limits Strength. That means these individual need to increase Limits Strength.

    Individual with greater Limit Strength vs Speed/Power need to force on Speed/Power Movements.

    D.E. Accommodating Resistance

    Dynamic Effort Training does slight favor Geared Lifters.

    However, it should be employed by Raw Lifter, Bodybuilders, etc for a variety of reasons.

    1) Overloading The Muscle Through A Great Range

    As we know one of the keys for optimizing Limit Strength and Size is that the muscle need to be overloaded, muscle fiber need to be engaged to be worked and developed

    Research shows that with all traditionally loaded resistance movement, the exercise only overload approximately one-third of the movement. That means underloading of the muscle occur in in the remaining two-third of of all exercises.

    Some training effective is achieved in the underloaded two-third of the movement but not maximized.

    Accommodating Resistance in Ascending Strength Cure Exercise ensure that the muscle are overloaded in a greater range of the movement; maximizing Limits Strength, Power, Speed and Muscle Hypertrophy development.

    2) Sticking Point of Raw Lifters

    Dynamic Effort Accommodating Resistance Training means using moderate loads in the development of Power and light loads in the development of Speed.

    Let's take the Bench Press as an example. The Sticking Point for Raw Lifter is approximately 4 inches off the chest, the first third of the movement. (Source: Dr Tom McLaughlin, PhD Exercise Biomechanics).

    In the Squat and Conventional Deadlift the Sticking Point, the Sticking Point is approximately in the same one third of the movement; in the Squat a few inches above parallel in a Powerlifting Squat and right at the knees in a Conventional Deadlift.

    The Sticking Point, as we know, in a Sumo Deadlift is in the bottom position, coming off the floor.

    With Accommodating Resistance with Raw Lifter with moderate load encounter slightly more resistance in the Sticking Point area. That determined by how you attach/adjust the Band or Chain on the bar.

    Doing so, allows to you to provide more or less resistance at certain part of the movement, such as the sticking point.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences

    This means that sometimes when you do right works out wrong and sometimes something you do wrong turn out right.

    In manipulating the Accommodating Resistance Loading on a Squat once by accident (in plan English, by doing something stupid) it came out right.

    I set up my Squat Accommodating Resistance Power Set so my force production out of the hole was good but was a slightly greater at my Sticking Point in a Raw Squat.

    It allowed me to emphasize the loading in my Sticking Point. I also learned that if I wanted to to maintain Power at my Sticking Point, I need to metaphorically keep my foot on the gas.

    That method allowed me to increase Power and Strength at my Sticking Point. My Sticking Point then shifted to being a little higher up.

    QUOTE="Philippe Geoffrion, post: 260393, member: 10077"]D.E. Day can once again be subbed for a technique or volume day[/QUOTE]

    Dynamic Effort For Technique

    Power Training with moderate loads provide some technique development. However, technique is optimized when load of 85% or more are employed with a Squat, Bench Press or Deadlift for single repetition.

    '

    70-80% of 1 Repetition Max

    Power in Traditional Strength Exercise (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift) is developed with load of 48 - 62% of a 1 Repetition Max.

    Dynamic Effort Training with load of 70 - 80% are too high. Some individual might be able may be able to produce Power with close to 70% of a 1 Repetition Max in a Tradition Strength Movement. However, very few individual can.

    A training effect elicited with 70 - 80%. However, it not Power.

    Olympic Lifter and some other type movement, are movements in which Power Output is best displayed and developed with load of 70 - 80% of a 1 Repetition Max.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
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  9. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Site Specific

    This doesn't make sense. I'm interesting in hearing why.

    Research shows adage about performing Squat as a means to trigger increasing upper body growth is a misnomer. The believe was/is that performing Squat or let's say Deadlifts increase testosterone, which it does.

    However, that increase in testosterone is site specific to the the muscle involved in the lower body not the upper body.

    Bikers and Sprinter

    In Dr Keith Barr's podcast the I posted a while back, Baar discussed the research on Bikers and Sprinter who training revolved around the development of lower body. Leg Strength, Power and Speed.

    Their focus was on decreasing upper body muscle mass/body weight. Doing so, allowed them to decrease their time, generate more force due to being lighter

    The same applies to Track High Jumper.

    It amount to putting a huge engine in a small, lighter weight car, like a Hot Rod Dragster. It amount to a frame with tires on in an huge engine in the front and one small seat for the drive.

    The Bikers and Sprinters leg training increased the Limit Strength, Power, Speed and Muscle Mass (Sprinter's leg mass increase) without an increase in upper body mass.

    Increasing Bench Press Strength

    The same applies to increasing Limit Strength in the Bench Press. Squatting is going to increase your Squat and have some carry over to your Deadlift and other lower body leg exercises.

    The most effective method of increasing your Bench Press it to Bench Press or employ some type of similar Pressing Movement: Dips, Incline Press. Decline Press, Overhead Press. etc.

    Speed/Power Vs Limit Strength

    Some individual have more great Speed/Power than Limits Strength. That means these individual need to increase Limits Strength.

    Individual with greater Limit Strength vs Speed/Power need to force on Speed/Power Movements.

    D.E. Accommodating Resistance

    Dynamic Effort Training does slightly favor Geared Lifters.

    However, it should be employed by Raw Lifter, Bodybuilders, etc for a variety of reasons.

    1) Overloading The Muscle Through A Great Range

    As we know, one of the keys for optimizing Limit Strength and Size is that the muscles need to be overloaded, muscle fiber need to be engaged to be worked and developed

    Research shows that with all traditionally loaded resistance movements, the exercise only overloads approximately one-third of the movement. That means underloading of the muscle occur in in the remaining two-third of of all exercises.

    A training effective is achieved in the underloaded two-third of the movement but not maximized.

    Thus, Accommodating Resistance in Ascending Strength Cure Exercise ensure that the muscle are overloaded in a greater range of the movement; maximizing Limits Strength, Power, Speed and Muscle Hypertrophy development.

    2) Sticking Point of Raw Lifters

    Dynamic Effort Accommodating Resistance Training means using moderate loads in the development of Power and light loads in the development of Speed.

    Let's take the Bench Press as an example. The Sticking Point for Raw Lifter is approximately 4 inches off the chest, the first third of the movement. (Source: Dr Tom McLaughlin, PhD Exercise Biomechanics).

    In the Squat and Conventional Deadlift the Sticking Point, the Sticking Point is approximately in the same one third of the movement; in the Squat a few inches above parallel in a Powerlifting Squat and right at the knees in a Conventional Deadlift.

    The Sticking Point, as we know, in a Sumo Deadlift is in the bottom position, coming off the floor.

    With Accommodating Resistance with Raw Lifter with moderate load encounter slightly more resistance in the Sticking Point area. That determined by how you attach/adjust the Band or Chain on the bar.

    Doing so, allows to you to provide more or less resistance at certain parts of the movement, such as the sticking point.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences

    This means that sometimes when you do something right it turn out wrong and sometimes something when you do wrong turn out right.

    In manipulating the Accommodating Resistance Loading on a Squat once by accident (in plan English, by doing something stupid) it came out right.

    I set up my Squat Accommodating Resistance Power Set so my force production out of the hole was good but was a slightly greater at my Sticking Point in a Raw Squat.

    It allowed me to emphasize the loading in my Sticking Point. I also learned that if I wanted to to maintain Power at my Sticking Point, I need to metaphorically keep my foot on the gas.

    That method allowed me to increase Power and Strength at my Sticking Point. My Sticking Point then shifted to being a little higher up.

    Dynamic Effort For Technique

    Power Training with moderate loads provide some technique development. However, technique is optimized when load of 85% or more are employed with a Squat, Bench Press or Deadlift for single repetition.


    70-80% of 1 Repetition Max

    Power in Traditional Strength Exercise (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift) is developed with load of 48 - 62% of a 1 Repetition Max.

    Dynamic Effort Training with load of 70 - 80% are too high. Some individual might be able may be able to produce Power with close to 70% of a 1 Repetition Max in a Tradition Strength Movement. However, very few individual can.

    A training effect is elicited with 70 - 80%. However, it'd not Power.

    Olympic Lifter and some other type movement, are movements in which Power Output is best displayed and developed with load of 70 - 80% of a 1 Repetition Max.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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  10. Philippe Geoffrion

    Philippe Geoffrion More than 500 posts

    I think you misunderstood or I misstated. I meant that the best improvements i receive in my bench press are when I noticeably add size to my upper body, as long as that size comes from the bench or similar lifts/movements.

    As for raw sticky region, even if the place where the bar sticks is four inches off the chest, isn’t this still due to weakness off the very bottom. Doesn’t the sticky region begin a little prior to where the bar actually stalls because acceleration wasn’t adequate before this point? I would think long pauses and thrusts just off the chest would be more beneficial for this sticky region but Westside D.E. Bench involves no pause, thus it makes it difficult to call D.E. for bench at Westside a true technique day, especially for a raw guy/gal.
    Of course doing touch and go helps develop the stretch reflex and reversal strength as we know do of course it has its use.

    As far as power goes, we also know it is not an asset to a power lifter, hence the misnomer, as it doesn’t matter how fast the lift is executed as opposed to an Olympic lift, long jump, hammer throw. However as a similar topic was touched on another thread recently, I think lifting with the intent to be as fast as possible (with no sacrifice to tension or form), can teach a lifter aggression and to access the biggest motor units to complete the lift.

    As a raw guy, I think training with a higher percentage on D.E. Day (which also compensates for my lack of accommodating rsesistsnce) say several triples with a 6 rep max trains this aspect just fine.
     
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  11. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Misunderstood

    I misunderstood.

    Gaining weight definitely will increase your Bench Press and everything else on a well written/executed strength training program.

    Bench Press Off The Chest

    In a Paused Bench Press, you have enough strength to drive the weight up. So, you have some strength off the bottom.

    Sticking Point

    Yes, the Sticking Point occurs just below where the bar stops moving because your acceleration/momentum slows down. It amounts to going up a steep hill and stalling out.

    The Sticking Point occurs for a variety or reason. One, you are at a mechanical disadvantage. It is also a transition point a shift in the muscle involvement.

    Think of it like a Sprint Relay Race where the baton is handed off from one runner to another. The baton hand off is the transition point, where thing go wrong.

    America's Men's Relay Sprinters have lost quite a few races in the past due to problems in passing the baton off from on runner to another.

    Limit Strength Paused Bench Pressing

    Yes, Paused Bench Pressing off the chest need to be part of a well written Bench Press Training Program.

    Chad Wesley Smith (great Powerlifter) stated that his Bench Press increased with Pec Training: the pec are instrumental in driving the bar off the chest.

    Heavy Paused Bench Pressing, Heavy Dumbbell Paused Bench Pressing, Functional Partial Isometric Bench Pressing with the bottom pins essentially sitting on your chest and then driving the bar in to pin set up around your Sticking Point, etc.

    Paused Explosive Bench Press Training

    Paused Power Bench Press Training with loads of 48 - 62% of your 1 Repetition Pause Bench Press increase Explosive Power off the chest.

    Dynamic Effort

    Dynamic Effort is developed with the Westside Touch and Go Method as well as Paused Explosive/Power Bench Pressing. Each elicits a different training response.

    Special Strength Training

    Verkhoshansky's book is a brilliant piece of work.

    It breaks Explosive Training down into there types.

    1) Isometric Ballistic: Isometric in this contest refers to initiating an Explosive Movement from a Dead Stop. The end of the movement going "Ballistic"; a body or an object becoming airborne.

    Example: Power Clean from the floor from a Dead Stop.

    Paused Bench Press Power Training fall under this umbrella. The "Intent" in driving the weight up is to project it into the air.

    However, that isn't going to occur with a moderately heavy load.

    2) Explosive Ballistic: The means that a movement is initiated with some momentum prior to going Ballistic.

    Example: Shot Putting. Prior to launching the Shot, the thrower glides or spins; generating momentum before the throw.

    In the Bench Press this can be achieved in a couple of different ways. One method that Heavy Weight Lifter often do is lift their head off the bench as the bar descends down to the chest.

    The pause is synchronized with the lifter then lowering their head, driving it into the Bench, producing the Tonic Neck Reflex, something you do in your Bench Press, as I remember.

    What also occurs is as you lower you head and drive it into the bench, the back is arched, driving chest up, initiating bar momentum off the chest.

    This method is allowed in a Contest Bench Press, as long as it is not excessive. If excessive is it referred to as "Heaving" and the lift is disqualified.

    It is somewhat similar to baseball. In throwing a runner out at at a base, the tie goes to the runner.

    The Original Westside Box Squat (Frenn and DeMarco) method employed rocking forward after sitting on box, lifting your heels up and then slamming them into the floor as you ascended; movement prior prior to ascending.

    Again, due the load in a Bench Press, the bar isn't going to become airborne. However, the "Intent" needs to be to drive the bar up so that it does go airborne.

    3) Explosive-Reactive-Ballistic: This involves the Stretch Reflex prior to diving the the weigh up.

    Again, the weight will be too heavy go airborne but the "Intent" needs to be on launching it.

    Power Training for Powerlifters

    I not sure that I understand this. So, my following reply may not address it. Anyway, her goes.

    The Westside Method

    Anecdotal data has demonstrated that Power Training is effective for increasing the strength in the Powerlifts.

    Dr Michael Zourdos' Research

    Zourdos (Powerlfiter) supports Westside. Zourdos found that Conjugate Training that employed Hypertrophy, Power and Limit Strength produced greater Limit Strength than a Traditional Limit Strength only approach.

    It's definitely worked for me.

    Higher Training Percentages on D.E. Days

    Research demonstrates that when moderate loads (Power Training) and light loads (Speed Training) with let's say a Bench Press, Power Output is produced in a very small percentage of the movement. More of the movement is devoted to braking.

    To ensure Power Output is displayed through a greater range of the Bench Press one of two methods needs to be employed: Accommodating Resistance or going Ballistic, launching the bar into the air.

    When higher percentages are employed in the Bench Press, a greater percentage of the movement is devoted in acceleration, less to braking.

    Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

    "Research has shown as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down." (Flannagan, 2001). Elliot et al. (1989) revealed that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24% of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar deceleration occurs during the final 52% of the range of motion. The accompanying deceleration phases result in significantly decreased motor unit recruitment, velocity of movement, power production and compromises the effectiveness of the exercise." (Berry et. al., 2001)

    The National Strength and Conditioning Association's Basic Guidelines for the Resistance Training of Athletes states that "performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weights (e.g., 30-45% of 1RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but rather teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down. If the load can be released into the air (i.e., the bar can be let go at the end of the range of motion), the negative effects are eliminated. Here is a situation in which the medicine ball became a rediscovered tool for upper-body power and plyometrics." (Pearson et. al., 2000)

    Heavy Explosive Bench Press Training

    This is an Oxymoron. There is inverse relationship.

    As the bar load nears your 1 Repetition Max, Power decreases.

    As your bar load of your 1 Repetition Max decreases (48 - 62%), Power increases.

    Drop your 1 Repetition even more (10 - 40% of 1 RM) and now you are Speed Training; the bar or your body can and should go airborne to develop Speed.

    The percentage for Olympic Movement for Power is 70 - 80%.

    The Synergistic Effect

    The Westside Method and Zourdos research, along with others, have demonstrated that a well written/executed Conjugate Training Method that employs: Limit Strength, Power, Speed and Hypertrophy elicit a synergistic effect.

    One strength enhance another.

    Schoenfeld's Hpertrophy Research

    Schoenfeld research demonstrated the same occurs when three components are employed with Hypertrophy Training.

    1) Mechanical Tension: Limit Strength Training.

    2) Metabolic Stress: Hypertrophy Training

    3) Muscle Damage: Pushing to failure or near failure at some point in a training cycle and loaded stretching of the muscles.

    Loaded Stretching Examples: Dumbbell Bench Press that allows maximal stretching, Full Squat, etc,

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 10:00 AM
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  12. Philippe Geoffrion

    Philippe Geoffrion More than 500 posts

    Perhaps my statement of power not being important to powerlifting was misspoken. My intention was to infer that a max effort powerlifting has a relatively lower power output as compared to other events such as a discus thrower, Olympic lift or the likes. But yes, it is still beneficial to be developed for said lifter in the sense that max force is not that high in a powerful baseball swing but max strength can help that same batter hit the ball that much further.

    My only other grip with Westside, while we’re at it, is the lack of training if the two muscle groups vital for a raw lifters total: the quads and chest. And that many of their lifting cues (elbow tuck, sit back in the squat, no knee bend) would not be completely applicable to the raw guy. However, these can be easily manipulated for a raw guy to follow the Westside template while utilizing different accessory and M.E. Lifts than the geared fellows.

    However, in bringing up the Jug (CWS), I was reminded of an article he wrote addressing these exact issues.

    How I Would Westside - Juggernaut Training Systems
     
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  13. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Modifications
    Power In Powerlifting

    As you stated, there isn't much Power in Powerlifting.

    Research (Dr John Garhammer) determined the Squat and Deadlift in a 1 Repetition Max produce 12 watts per kilo of body weight. The Bench Press produced 4 watts per kilo of body weight.

    In Olympic Movements, Power Output could reach 52.6 for men and 39.2 watts per kilo of body weight.

    Strength Lifts

    The English termed them as The Strength Lifts, which they are.

    The American's referred to the as the Powerlifts, which was/is incorrect. This term stuck.

    Shot Putt

    The Discus Thowers produces power. However, research shows that Shot Putter produce greater power that rivals Olympic Lifters.

    Strength Is The Foundation of Power

    Limit Strength initially increase Power.

    With that said, if only Limit Strength is trained, at some point Power and Speed drop. That means at some point, Power and Speed Training need to be incorporated into a training program.

    Dr Michael Stone

    Stone is one of the leaders in Strength Training; formerly with the Olympic Lifting Training Center in Colorado Springs.

    In an interview, Stone was ask what American Olympic Lifters need to do to become better and more competitive. Stone replied, "They need to get stronger."

    For a Baseball Batter, any athlete, increasing strength to a degree, helps to increase Power and Speed.

    The Powerlifting Low Bar Stance Squat

    The workload is shifted more to the larger and stronger posterior chain with Raw and Geared Lifters. The quad are not as vital for the Raw nor Geared Lifter.

    The Low Bar Rack allows you to sit back more, engaging the lager, stronger posterior chain.

    While Quad Strength is important its role isn't as great as the role of the posterior chain with the Low Bar Squat, Raw or Geared.

    High Bar Powerlifting Squat

    A High Bar Powerlifting Squatter Raw or Geared Lifter engages the quads more, need more quad strength to drive the weight up.

    With that said, let look at Lifter who perform the...

    Squat-Morning

    That meaning the as the lifter ascends in the Squat, the lifter lean forward, turning the Squat into a Good Morning.

    Many individual incorrectly believe this is an indication of a weak back.

    The issue is usually that they have weak quads and a strong back. The quad are unable to continue to drive the weight up.

    The load is then shifted to the stronger back to complete the lift.

    That is one thing that I have stated for years. Dr Greg Nuckols went into that in one of his articles. In a recent interview, Dr Bret Contreras stated the same.

    The Solution

    Lifter who perform a Squat-Morning, Raw or Geared, must increase Quad Strength. Doing so, ensure that are able to maintain drive in the ascending Squat without performing a Good Morning.

    Personal Example

    I was more of a Squat-Morning Lifter. However, I rectified that issue by increasing my Quad Strength. My Squat Training constantly focues on my Quads.

    1) Belt Squats: This take my/your lower back out of the movement, placing the work on the Quads and Posterior Chain.

    This is a great exercise. All you need a loading pin for your weight plates, a Spud Belt Squat Belt, and two boxes to stand on (elevate your self, so you can Squat).

    I had a friend make make me basically two Skies that attached to the pins in my Power Rack. It allows me to Squat Wide, Medium, Narrow as well as perform Incline and Decline Squats.

    Incline Squats engage more of the posterior chain, you have to sit back more.

    Decline Squats hammer the Quads, a more erect position is required. Declines essentially are Front Squat with No back loading.

    2) Step Up: Stepping up on a box holding a dumbbell with bands attached.

    3) Dumbbell/Cable or Banded Box Squats: A Narrow Stance Squat off a box holding dumbbells with a Cable Weight or Bands attached around the waist.

    This works the Quads and Posterior Chain at the same time.

    Quad strength is developed in driving the weight up and Posterior Chain strength developed in thrusting forward to get off the box and stand up.

    Chest Training

    In Geared Lifters, the chest is still trained but Bench Press Shirt eliminate the Sticking Point off the chest, shifting it to the top end of the movement, more emphasis is place increasing top end strength.

    However, as I stated Chad Wesley Smith stated more chest training increased his Bench Press, Raw and Bench Press Shirt.

    With that said, more chest training (Limit Strength and Power Training) need to be employed with Raw Lifters.

    The Take Home Message

    Work your Sticking Point.

    For Raw Bench Pressers that will be around 4 inches off the chest in the first one-third of the movement.

    The Article Information

    Chad Wesley Smith, great lifer and smart guy. I quoted him in the previous post.

    Now the butt...

    Things That I Don't Agree With

    1) Raw Lifters: "...Must perform the competition lifts (squat, bench, deadlift) more frequently."

    Not so. More Technique Training for Raw Lifter is not any more important than Geared Lifter.

    Geared Lifter may require more Technique Training in a Bench Press Shirt or a Squat Suit to learn the nuances of how to utilized the Gear. The movement pattern is completely different.

    2) "...Raw lifters, ...too many people will tend to use a wide variety of max effort lifts and in doing so are never really able to build enough skill in the lift to progress and can’t measure their progress."

    One of the keys to increasing Limit Strength is to employ a variety of movement that are similar in nature to the Competition Lift, working it from a different angle.

    I have provide multiple posting of the research on this site that has demonstrated the one of the primary keys to increasing Limit Strength is Varying Exercises.

    "Building Skill"

    Building Skill in the Competition Lifts (Dr Tom McLaughlin) is optimized with load of 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max for singles, maybe doubles.

    Technique with light load provide some Skill Developed and is useful but not as optimal with heavier loads.

    Using the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises will increase Limits Strength at the expense of Skill/Technique, as muscle fatigue set in.

    With each repetition of the movement, Skill/Technique is altered. The weaker muscles (as the example of the Squat-Morning demonstrates) shift the load to the stronger muscles; a survival mechanism.

    It's similar to giving the last shot in a Basketball Game to your Best Shooter for the win.

    Pole Vaulting For Repetitions

    Performing the Competition Lifts for Repetition makes as much senses as Pole Vaulting for Repetitions.

    Modification

    Yes, some modification of the Westside Protocol need be made by Raw Lifters.

    Grasping The Concepts

    One of the keys in making those modification is understanding the concepts of the Westside Program, or similar type programs and making the adjustments.

    Grasping The Concepts is like the story of giving a someone a fish so they can eat vs teaching someone to fish. Knowing how to catch the fish make you self reliant, independent.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 8:53 AM
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  14. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    To elaborate on this, I've seen inexperienced track coaches (not that I am experienced) and begining athletes start by doing vaults for repetitions. It only helps naturally good vaulters but doesn't really help develop an unnatural vaulter. The high and long jumpers and hurdlers I've worked with are the same. Doing them for reps only teaches and reinforces doing it wrong.

    For strength training, I've come to really like cluster sets of singles at 85-90% to practice a high volume of high quality.
     
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  15. Philippe Geoffrion

    Philippe Geoffrion More than 500 posts

    So in order to realize the strength of the competition lifts, I deduce that when training Westside you’d only utilize competition lifts when peaking for meet time, yes?
     
  16. Philippe Geoffrion

    Philippe Geoffrion More than 500 posts

    Interestingly, I witnessed the same in my high school track days but maybe the purpose of such is not necessarily technique development but more with orientation. There is definitely a comfort factor in pole vaulting and jumping and I’d see this period of just doing the movements as a time for athletes to do a lot of things like overcome the fear of thrusting yourself over a 15 foot pole or getting used to landing in the sand or the discomfort of hitting the hurdle or the bar in a high jump.
    Such a period seems almost necessary to analyze each athletes specific needs or adjustments in future training I’d think. Even if most of the time, specialty exercises are used to develop each individuals skills, the actual competition technique must be observed at least some of the time I’d think. How else can one measure the starting point on the runway without actually emulating their competition technique. Of course, 100 meter dash and long jump training were trained by doing drills mostly and sprints at varying distances or just off the blocks, but for a pole vaulter, which seems to require a high degree of skill and confidence, i’d think they would do the exact movement at least SOME of the time.
     
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  17. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Vaulting For Non-Stop Repetitions

    If you mean Vaulting For Non-Stop Repetition for let's say a set of 5 or more reps, it doesn't make sense.

    That would mean sprinting to the bar, vaulting, then immediately jogging back and immediately perform another repetition non-stop for let's say a set of 5 repetitions.

    Doing so ensure that beginning vaulters develop poor technique, develops poor skill.

    Any coach using that approach falls into the, "Stupid is a as stupid does" category.

    You definitely learn from coaches like this; you learn what Not to do.

    Cluster Sets

    Yes, Cluster Set can be effective in developing the skill in the movement. That providing enough recovery time is provided between a rep or grouping of reps, ensuring technique is maintained.

    Kenny Croxdale

     
  18. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Not Clear On This

    I am not sure what you are saying. That means I am going to guess (guessing is never good).

    Utilizing The Competition Lifts

    If by this you mean performing the Competition Lift for Repetition the answer is No.

    Technique Training

    Technique Training with load of 85% plus for single repetition simulates Contest Meet Conditions.

    Olympic Lifters

    Olympic Lifter don't perform sets of repetition (let's say 5 to 10 per set) for increasing strength or skill in the movement; which amount to Pole Vaulting for Repetitions.

    The Dogma of Powerlifters

    For some reason, the dogma of Powerlifters began with Lifter using the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises. That approach continue to exist with many Powerlifters.

    I used the Powerlifts as Training Exercises for year because that is what I initially learned and was taught.

    Powerlifting is the only sport that I can think of that uses uses the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019 at 6:30 AM
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  19. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    "Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.”

    Vaulting or Jumping for Non-Stop Repetitions (if that is what you mean) to become more oriented/comfortable comes at the expense of technique/skill development.

    The key in the development of technique/skill and become more confident and comfortable is accomplished with long term and continued practice with perfect practice sessions.

    The is one of the primary reason why when technique begins to erode, the Technique Training Session is Stopped.

    Once muscle fatigue occurs, continuing the movement guarantees that your technique is altered and poor technique is developed.

    Technique Training

    Initially, performing the movement with a lower training percentage for repetition for someone who new is a required.

    That is followed by performing the movement with a heavier load and observing the technique of the lifter.

    If the increased training percentage/load in the lift promotes poor technique, the load needs to be dropped down for technique training.

    Benefits of Observing Poor Technique

    One of the benefits of increasing the load in Technique Training is it identifies the weakness in the movement; the muscle groups that need to be strengthened to eliminate the weakness and ensure good technique.

    The Squat-Morning Example

    For many lifters, such as myself, this demonstrates weak quad drive and a strong back.

    To eliminate or minimize this flaw, it means you need to increase your Quad Strength.

    A secondary factor is often that your abs are not strong enough for you to maintain an upright position.

    What Is The Point?

    What is the point performing an exercise to become more comfortable with it, if it is at the expense of developing poor technique.

    What it does in make you more comfortable at performing the movement wrong.

    The Squat-Morning is an example of that.

    It Does Not Feel Right

    1) Once you learn something wrong, it feel right.

    In working with some lifter on improving their technique the main blow back that I get is that performing the movement with good technique doesn't feel right.

    Any change to something isn't going to feel right.

    My reply is, "Keep doing it until it does feel right". That is what technique training/practice is all about.

    2) Fear: Many lifter fear losing ground when they change their technique; lifting less with the the new method.

    My reply, "I guarantee that you are initially going to lift less". It amount to taking one step backward and two steps forward.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019 at 7:43 AM
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  20. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    More like go, walk back, go, walk back...for 30min or however long the session is.
     

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