Other/Mixed Blog - Best Hip Hinge Exercise

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Pavel did those comparisons (IMO) with the general population in mind.
Apples and oranges are not the same, but they are similar (about the same size; both healthy contents in form of vitamins, fiber etc.)

Let's make up an example:
- Apples are swings, oranges are DLs.
- In this made up cenario the orange seeds are more expensive than apple seeds (you get 2-3 or more KBs for the prize of a barbell+plates, even if you go for used stuff).
- Both trees grow at about the same rate, the orange tree bears its fruits just slightly before the apple tree (it takes more time to teach the swing than the DL, but KB DLs are also part of the learning process to perform swings, so the the difference between both is almost not there)
- Both trees are the same size (swings and DLs require the same amount of space)
- You can only eat oranges up to a certain point before you get sick, the amount of apples you can eat before getting sick is much, much higher (there are exceptions, but the general rule is that DLs need more recovery than swings and especially very heavy DLs take more out of you than they give)
You get some kind of cage with limited space (only for one tree), 50 pets in it and a limited amount of money.
Your task is to feed those pets and make their life as enjoyable as possible (by using the spare money after the seed purchase).
Would you go for apples or oranges?
I think the clear answer for most of you would be apples.

In a perfect world you'd have unlimited space to build as much trees as you like (a very big gym) an infinite amount of money (all the tools you can imagine to go into said gym) and the pets enjoy life without spending more money (a body with perfect mobility, flexibility, no health issues, etc.).
In that world you wouldn't need to decide between apples and oranges and go for as much of both as you want.

Sadly our world is not perfect. The general population has to deal with all kinds of limitations - limited money, limited space, limited time, limited body ability. If you're looking for the best possible results with the minimum effective dosis while navigating all those limitations you come up with different "best exercises" than in a perfect world.
I love both the DL and the swing, but in this imperfect world (Earth in the 21th century) I also would chose the swing as the best hip hinge.
And yes in this imperfect world I would also chose the Zercher squat over e.g. the back squat or front squat.

In general, I agree with you.

However, if we have a look at the typical member of the audience of Pavel's books or the members and readers of this website, I would be so bold to claim that the absolute minority of the people in these two groups live in absolute poverty or in such a remote location, that they do not, with relatively minor expenses, ever have access to both a barbell and a kettlebell. Like Pavel himself said in PTTP: "hard core basics come cheap".

So I do not really see the sense in picking only the other exercise and that's why I see it as silly.
 

rickyw

Level 7 Valued Member
For whatever reason, my back doesn't like extension exercises - they do something funny to my herniated disc that just bracing my back doesn't do,

My personal guess is it is harder to maintain a neutral spine with back extensions because the hips are stabilized by the extension bench, so there may be some lumbar flexion at the bottom or over extension at the top, which movement under shear load your disc doesn't like.

With the deadlift or swing or probably the good morning, the hips can move in space to accommodate maintaining a neutral spine.

Just a guess
 
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Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
It is possible to load more weight onto a barbell for a deadlift than you can swing a kettlebell.

I'd like to be corrected on this assumption, but for me the kettlebell is a way to make up for not having huge expensive equipment through using ballistics to increase the virtual weight of the bell.

I just recently compared my S&S programme using a 40kg weight to my friend's deadilfting programme using something like a 200 kg weight!!! Like, who is stronger? I wonder...

I can say here, as one who started the S&S with 50 lbs kettlebell, having 500 lbs 1RM deadlift under my belt - it's different. I'm having a tough time with swings time-wise, and this is all endurance. The component of endurance changes the entire thing here. As rightly said @Steve Freides, swing makes you last longer, your endurance is top-notch. So that's why I asked about incorrect comparison. In my opinion, to compare the exercise of absolute strength vs strength-endurance is a difficult thing to make. So, for the question "what works hip hinge better" I would ask a refinement - in what terms - absolute strength or strength-endurance. Of course, making it more general and adapted to the daily needs of average human - swing wins.

@Kettlebelephant , thanks for your nice comparison, it's a pleasure to read :) Yes, kettlebell wins due to the versatility, compact size, value for money as a tool. As for exercise - I already said above what I think. I'm glad I entered the world of swings, and once I'll back to the gym, I'll work on combining swing and barbell DL together into one program, to enjoy both of the imperfect worlds ;-)
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I can say here, as one who started the S&S with 50 lbs kettlebell, having 500 lbs 1RM deadlift under my belt - it's different. I'm having a tough time with swings time-wise, and this is all endurance. The component of endurance changes the entire thing here. As rightly said @Steve Freides, swing makes you last longer, your endurance is top-notch. So that's why I asked about incorrect comparison. In my opinion, to compare the exercise of absolute strength vs strength-endurance is a difficult thing to make. So, for the question "what works hip hinge better" I would ask a refinement - in what terms - absolute strength or strength-endurance. Of course, making it more general and adapted to the daily needs of average human - swing wins.

@Kettlebelephant , thanks for your nice comparison, it's a pleasure to read :) Yes, kettlebell wins due to the versatility, compact size, value for money as a tool. As for exercise - I already said above what I think. I'm glad I entered the world of swings, and once I'll back to the gym, I'll work on combining swing and barbell DL together into one program, to enjoy both of the imperfect worlds ;-)
This is the first time I've come to understand why people train both swings and deadlifts at the same time. I get it - the swing for endurance and the deadlifts for raw strength.

If I can 1 hand swing the 40 for S&S, what would my deadlift weight be?
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
This is the first time I've come to understand why people train both swings and deadlifts at the same time. I get it - the swing for endurance and the deadlifts for raw strength.

If I can 1 hand swing the 40 for S&S, what would my deadlift weight be?

One can't make such a comparison, just like you can't compare press strength to get-up strength. Of course there is a correlation, but it's not rational to compare it. Especially when you can just go to a gym and try it out.

There is, naturally, also a learning curve with the deadlift. So you can't really compare your first deadlift to your true level. It takes some sets and reps to become proficient enough to know your true max. And if you happen to be one that progresses quickly, your strength will increase even in this learning period.

For what it's worth, before I started deadlifting, I swinged mostly with a 32kg and sometimes with a 40kg, sometimes with a 24kg. I could DL 120kg the first day and 160kg the third day of training. On day 12 of training my max was 190kg, which was a true max, as I tried 200kg also and couldn't get it up enough. The actual timespan between days 1 and 12 was 18 days.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
For what it's worth, before I started deadlifting, I swinged mostly with a 32kg and sometimes with a 40kg, sometimes with a 24kg. I could DL 120kg the first day and 160kg the third day of training. On day 12 of training my max was 190kg, which was a true max, as I tried 200kg also and couldn't get it up enough. The actual timespan between days 1 and 12 was 18 days.

When I first time tried deadlift, it was 70 kg, having none of compound barbell moves experience. It took 3 years to triple the result without even knowing what swing is.

@Kozushi , if you can OHS 40 kg S&S, I think your deadlift, after getting used to the technique and routine should be around 150-170 kg.
 

Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
For what it's worth, before I started deadlifting, I swinged mostly with a 32kg and sometimes with a 40kg, sometimes with a 24kg. I could DL 120kg the first day and 160kg the third day of training. On day 12 of training my max was 190kg, which was a true max, as I tried 200kg also and couldn't get it up enough. The actual timespan between days 1 and 12 was 18 days
No DL experience before that ever? Because that is impressive!
I had a similar experience, but I have DLed and squatted heavy before so I can't rule out that most of my strength came from that and the swings are just "the cherry on top".
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
No DL experience before that ever? Because that is impressive!
I had a similar experience, but I have DLed and squatted heavy before so I can't rule out that most of my strength came from that and the swings are just "the cherry on top".

Thank you! I had done some light kettlebell deadlifts before to help me swing better, and I feel that I knew the movement pretty well in theory. But I had no prior barbell deadlift experience, that day 1 was the first day I ever had my hands on a barbell on a deadlift platform. I had practically no other barbell experience either.

I have been writing a training log here on the forum while I've been going to the gym. The progress and training has been explained in some detail in it. Feel free to have a look if you're interested: https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/antti-takes-to-the-gym.9435/
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Thats pretty accurate! I can swing one handed multiple sets of 5 with 40kg and 170kg is my best deadlift.
I mentioned this number as initial, with time and serious dedication to the deadlift it should go higher. Of course, it depends on the person and many factors around.
 

Michael Scott

Level 7 Valued Member
@Steve Freides, what about the Good Morning in 4 weeks to Flexible Steel? Do those also have a negative impact on your back?

@Geoff Chafe, I have never tried Good Mornings, and your mention of back extensions reminds me why. For whatever reason, my back doesn't like extension exercises - they do something funny to my herniated disc that just bracing my back doesn't do, so although I did try them a number of times, I've basically had to stay away from them.

After my next meet, I may give the GM a try again, though - I've read so many success stories of these having a great carryover to both the SQ and the DL.

-S-
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Steve Freides, what about the Good Morning in 4 weeks to Flexible Steel? Do those also have a negative impact on your back?
Michael, I haven't ever done it.

My journey is a long one, e.g., I didn't do lower back stretches for about 10 years after my injury, and I still don't do them often because, even at 20 years out, my lower back still tends to get overstretched and give me problems if I do any more than just a very little stretching. Movements that are problematic for me - some of them I revisit from time to time. At the moment, I have no particular interest in the GM, but I don't rule it out as something I might try in the future.

-S-
 
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