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Nutrition Body Recomposition

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Marc

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Hey guys,

wanted to hear your opinion/experience about body recomposition. The premise is to maintain/increase muscle mass while decreasing fat mass and therefore optimising body composition.

Let me use an example.
-Subject: male, 90kg/200lbs; training 3x/week
-approx. calories to maintain weight: 200x15=3000

So on training days our subject will eat in a surplus (+400) and on rest days in a deficit (-300).
So the whole week will look like this:
(3x3400)+(4x2700)/7 = 3000
So in average the subject in question will have neighter a deficit nor a surplus but rotate his caloriv intake troughout the week.

What do you think?
 
generally spoken:
Use heavier weights/ train harder, cut out cheat food. Listen to your body.
More precisely:
I would rather think in monthly, or 5-6 weeks, cycles than one-week ones. I guess this is the way most lifting programmes for hypertrophy are planned. Eat more/cheat during your off or deload week. I would stick to a certain number of cals independent from training. The surplus or deficit comes in naturally depending on wether it is a rest or work day. It is easier to stick to an eating plan this way than changing it every other day. Think about making progress in the weight room and keep it simple in the kitchen.


I am female seems to turn out that every three to four weeks I have a couple of high calorie days and then it is easy to keep up training regime with less calories. I guess that is where hormones come into play ;)
 
Hey guys,

wanted to hear your opinion/experience about body recomposition. The premise is to maintain/increase muscle mass while decreasing fat mass and therefore optimising body composition.

Let me use an example.
-Subject: male, 90kg/200lbs; training 3x/week
-approx. calories to maintain weight: 200x15=3000

So on training days our subject will eat in a surplus (+400) and on rest days in a deficit (-300).
So the whole week will look like this:
(3x3400)+(4x2700)/7 = 3000
So in average the subject in question will have neighter a deficit nor a surplus but rotate his caloriv intake troughout the week.

What do you think?
This is a similar approach to one that Geoff Nuepert uses. Meat and vegetables on off days, Meat vegetables, and carbs on training days. Probably with a similar calorie cycling like you have.
 
@Marc I haven't tried it exactly as you said, but it makes sense.

You might be interested in this thread, in particular the reference made by @mprevost addresses your question. Organizing strength/hypertrophy/fat loss cycles

Also, have you visited leangains page? The guy is a specialist in this matter, and has an article on a book that talks about gaining muscle while losing fat. He calls it "the holy grail" iirc

Also, +1 to @Leesburgking on Geoff Neupert. In an free ebook, I think it's KB Burn, he discusses the macro choices and caloric count. He does it on a caloric deficit though, breaking even on training days and deficit on non training days
 
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Unless you are a pro athlete burning megacalories,you dont need a 400 calorie surplus on training days.Better to eat when hungry--I tend to eat less on workout days;sometimes hungrier on 'off days"--I've learned to listen to my body than to follow a regimented format--but we are all different.
 
Personally I'd flip the eating pattern so you eat more carbs/protein on the "rest" days. When bulking, I eat larger on my off days. Cut the calories back on training days. This also based on the premise that training volume will be increasing a bit to help with hypertrophy and fat loss.

Limit overall fat (gasp!). I know there are plenty of folks who don't roll this way, but cutting carbs tends to result in overall loss of body mass, so you lose some water weight, glycogen stores, some fat as you get a somewhat better insulin response. Cutting the same amount of calories in fat consumption leads to greater net fat loss, on a calorie to calorie basis. It doesn't take much of a change if you aren't too far from your goal to begin with.


Turn Rest Days Into Growth Days | T Nation

Here's a little more, YMMV:
Calorie for Calorie, Dietary Fat Restriction Results in More Body Fat Loss than Carbohydrate Restriction in People with Obesity - ScienceDirect

We’ve long blamed carbs for making us fat. What if that's wrong?

But as Bazinet points out, "The study ... doesn’t see any [relationship between a decrease in insulin and an increase in fat loss]. Show me a better study that supports this."
 
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Hello,

@Marc
In terms of body composition, I noticed better result when:
> Rest days / low intensity days -> fat
> Training days / higher intensity days -> carbs

This means that I prefer eating a little bit more fat (regarding the "normal required macro"). I prefer eating slightly more carbs after the training to replenish the muscle glycogen after the training. This "strategy" helps me to recover faster and improve body composition. I never counted calories. I prefer trusting my body. Fat get me satieted faster than carbs. So as soon as I feel "full about 80%", in both cases, I put the fork down. As Schwarzenegger says "put that cookie down !"

There are also different types of exercises which require different diets. LSD is not necessarily the same animal than heavy weightlifting for instance. However, I think this is "personal". Some folks will react better by flipping over this logic, such as @North Coast Miller

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Thanks everybody, really great answers!
Normally I do not count calories/macros too precisly but rather focus on making smart food choices.
But right now I am cutting and therefore counting macros/calories. Want to lose some ~6lbs and then return to maintance. My goal is to be as light as possible while being as strong as possible (with the ultimate goal of taming the beast one day).
 
Great thread. Great responses.

Hoping for more insights from those who have effectively bulked/leaned by manipulating their diet while doing strength training.

@Marc our current weight and goals look to be same.
 
Let me use an example.
-Subject: male, 90kg/200lbs; training 3x/week
-approx. calories to maintain weight: 200x15=3000

200 X 15 Formula

Formula's such as this work in a vacuum but not in the real world.

When it comes to losing, gaining or maintaining weight, you first need to know where you are with your caloric intake.

That is most effective accomplished with a...

Three Day Recall

1) Record everything you consume for three days.

2) Add up the total calories for those three days and then divide by three.

Doing so will provide you more realistic view of you "Average Daily Caloric Intake".

One of the three days need to be a weekend day. That due to the fact that eating habit change on the weekend.

3) If you are...

a) Losing body weight means you are in a "Caloric Deficit".

b) Gaining weight means you are in a "Caloric Surplus".

c) No body weight change means caloric intake to caloric expenditure is balance.

With that said, some fluctuation in body weight occurs on a daily basis due to water weight.

I prefer eating slightly more carbs after the training to replenish the muscle glycogen after the training.

Glucose Repletion

Research by Dr Brad Schoenfeld has demonstrated that "Nutrition Timing" (such as consuming carbohydrates or more carbohydrates post workout) isn't necessary.

What essentially matter is what you consume during the rest of the day.

This "strategy" helps me to recover faster and improve body composition.

Not Really

To reiterate once more, Schoenfeld's research demonstrated that food ingestion immediately following a training session does not do any more than what you consume in the 24 hour period following your training session.

Also, consumption of carbohydrates post workout doesn't "Improve body composition".

With that said, post workout meals/beverage don't help nor hurt. So, do as you like.

I never counted calories.

Not Counting Calories

That amount to putting money in your bank, not balancing your check book, writing checks and trusting that method will workout.

Unless you are counting your calories, you have no idea of where you are on you "Diet Road Map.

It makes it impossible to plot your "Diet Destination" without first knowing where you are on "Diet Road Map".

I wanted to hear your opinion/experience about body recomposition. The premise is to maintain/increase muscle mass while decreasing fat mass and therefore optimising body composition.

Tip: Better Than Intermittent Fasting | T Nation

This research shows that alternating your caloric intake every two weeks is very effective.

..."intermittent or "yo-yo" group lost 50 percent more weight than the men in the control group. What's more, almost all of the extra pounds of weight lost by the intermittent group was fat instead of muscle."

Dr Layne Norton: Reverse Dieting

BioLayne Video Log 24 - Reverse Dieting | Biolayne

"Reverse Dieting" is Intermittent Dieting".

"Intermittent Dieting" is NOT the same as "Intermittent Fasting".

Norton's podcast provide additional information on this.

Intermittent Dieting:The General Adaptation Syndrome


The body adapts to any new stress or stimulus. This is know as "The General Adaptation Syndrome"

However, as with most things there is a definitive time factor involved.

The research data in the article above demonstrated that adaptation is approximately two weeks, when caloric intake is increased or decreased.

on training days our subject will eat in a surplus (+400) and on rest days in a deficit (-300).

Varying Daily Caloric Intake

Essentially, at the end of the week your caloric intake is the same.

Norton's podcast does an excellent job in explaining how "Reverse Dieting" (aka Intermittent Dieting, NOT Fasting) work in increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat.

Anecdotal Evidence

Bodybuilders have for the most part, successfully utilized "Reverse Dieting"/"Intermittent Dieting" via their "Bulking Periods"and "Cutting Periods".

Kenny Croxdale

""
 
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Not Really

To reiterate once more, Schoenfeld's research demonstrated that food ingestion immediately following a training session does not do any more than what you consume in the 24 hour period following your training session.

In respect of our fellow member pet', YES REALLY. If in his own training this has helped, then it has helped, and no amount of titles before someone's name can change that fact for pet'.

Is it applicable to everyone? It looks like Schoenfeld has shown that's no the case. Keep a training log, find patterns in what works for you, stick with it if its working well no matter what any one doctor is saying, because somewhere there's another doctor with a study to prove the exact opposite.
As Dan John would say "Things are going so well, help me screw it up"
 
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Not Really

To reiterate once more, Schoenfeld's research demonstrated that food ingestion immediately following a training session does not do any more than what you consume in the 24 hour period following your training session.
Well from Dr. Schoenfeld's own research (found here btw Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?):

"Studies show a supercompensation of glycogen stores when carbohydrate is consumed immediately post-exercise, and delaying consumption by just 2 hours attenuates the rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis by as much as 50% [21]"

21: Ivy JL. Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake. Int J Sports Med. 1998;19(Suppl 2):S142–5. [PubMed]


So yeah, that "recovery" feeling @pet' describes where you work out hard, eat your carbs, and feel ready to go after a couple of hours is certainly real and well-documented.

What Schoenfeld says is that taking them postworkout doesn't mean you make more glycogen overall. But it does mean you regenerate it much faster. That's why Dr. Schoenfeld says :

"Without question, expediting glycogen resynthesis is important for a narrow subset of endurance sports where the duration between glycogen-depleting events is limited to less than approximately 8 hours [31]"

For those who train multiple times a day (like @pet' who has a main session, and then might GTG or do other work later on), it's a good strategy.

But yes, I think we can all agree that what you eat over the 24 hours is much more important than when you eat it :)




Anyways:
@Marc : I've done body recomping in the past. Seems to get a bad rap when compared with more traditional diet/bulk strategies. But I've used it well. I think it's just about working hard, eating your carbs and protein (curbing those fats like @North Coast Miller mentions), and doing some higher rep work and a bit of conditioning.

Unsurprisingly, I think it's just about the effort you put in. The more you put in, the better the results :) That's what I've gathered from doing it myself and seeing others do it.
 
...it all depends on the activity level.

Definitely

The Sport or Activity is the key.

1) Phosphagen Energy System: Limit Strength (1 Repetition) and Explosive Movements that are around 15 seconds or less are dependent on ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate). Not glucose (carbohydrates).

2) Glycolytic Energy System: Moderately intense continuous Sports or Activities that are between 30 seconds to two (2) minutes require glucose; a greater intake of carbohydrates.

3) Oxidative Energy System: Lower intensity continuous Sports or Activities longer than two (2) minutes are less dependent on glucose; a higher percentage of ketones (body fat) is used for energy.

Thus, the Sport or Activity determine the most effective fuel source.

Charles Poliquin regarding this topic:

Poliquin's one of the best Strength Coaches in the business.

As Poliquin states...

"Macro-nutrient that should be prioritized as much as possible..."

1) Protein Number 1.

2) Fats Number 2.

3) Carbohydrates Number 3.

Kenny Croxdale
 
I have no letters after my name and no footnotes to back this up but... from my experince if I train hard in the evening before dinner and don't eat a decent amount of carbs after training then I don't sleep well. If I don't sleep well, I'm not gaining muscle well or losing fat well.
 
Nutrient plans such as this with the intent of increasing LBM & decreasing BF simultaneously rarely work in the real world.

The best method for body recomp (for most of us) seems to be - 3-6 months dedicated hypertrophy, 2-3 months of dedicated fat-loss with varying degrees of aggression. And maintenance.
 
Hello,

I think context matters here, and it all depends on the activity level....

Pet'

In terms of body comp and activity output, I'm not so sure activity level is going to be the bigger factor. To gain mass and not bodyfat you should eat a lot more protein and less fat, or increase your volume/intensity to where you are burning more fat. It is not easy to gain lean muscle bulk while lowering bodyfat%, but it can be done.

As regards the three energy pathways I tend to go bottom to top instead of top to bottom.

lipid aerobic
alactic glycolysis/carbohydrate aerobic
lactic/anaerobic glycolysis
phosphagen

Once you surpass the aereobic threshold all of the remaining pathways are active in tandem to some extent. One third of Phosphagen reaction is the pop-start for glycolysis, so within seconds glycolysis is contributing nearly 50% ATP output. Exclusive output of any one system does not really happen with possible exception of phosphagen system inactivity at low output - we burn carbs at rest.
 
Well, I am cuttting right now @2400 cals 5-6/week and 3200 cals 1-2/week.
Of course the 15 multiplyer is just a very broad estimation.

Personally I have never really followed dedicated bulks (the reason for my current cut are various culinary excesses around christmas and silvester).

Normally I ate at ~maintance and realised it gives me enough energy for training while not getting fat.

Was just wondering if cycling calories would bear any advantage as opposed to eating more or less the same amount every day even though the weekly average is the same.
 
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