all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Bodybuilding

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Dixon

Level 1 Valued Member
In the past I have followed many bodybuilding programmes with varying amounts of success. My goals though in the last few years have been more geared towards general fitness rather than body building but I have remained interested in the subject and still read many articles .

Since discovering this site I have been struck by the tendency towards workouts employing short bursts of work followed by long rests and am intrigued to how this approach would apply itself to bodybuilding given one of the tenets of the pursuit of gaining muscle mass is TUT. Obviously TUT is pretty much the opposite of the kind of short duration sets highlighted here.

Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?
 
Look in to plan 015 in the back of the Q + D book. It talks about hypertrophy with the manner you are speaking. Im sure some one else here could elaborate way better than i can.
 
Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?

Can quick lifts build muscles?

Definitely, if you do them over and over again.

Olympic weightlifting (my sport) spends most of its time in the power zone, 1-3 reps, very quick, very heavy. We also do some grinds (mostly squats), but the pulls are quick.

13f340ddbe65a32a1bcc80e402182130.jpg


23415bb2e60ee844f0d0fbe3e55edcef.jpg




But the muscles won't be as big and puffy, with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, as bodybuilders, who focus on size over strength or power.
 
Last edited:
@Dixon

With appropriate diet and programming, especially training with double kettlebells, you can successfully manipulate hypertrophy.

There are 3 mechanisms for building muscle - Mechanical Tension, Metabolic Stress, Muscle Damage.

Example 12 Week Hypertrophy Program - Double Clean & Press

Phase 1 (Mechanical Tension) - High percentage of 1RM / Low reps

Duration: 4 weeks / Use a weight for C&P that you can perform for a 10RM / Rest as necessary between sets
Workout length: 30 minutes (Get as many sets in as possible in this time frame)

Week 1 / Day 1 - Sets of 5....Wk 2 (Sets of 6).....Wk 3 (Sets of 5)......Wk 4 (Sets of 7)
Week 1 / Day 2 - Ladder 2,4,6....Wk 2 (3,5,7)....Wk 3 (2,4,6).....Wk 4 (3,5,7)
Week 1 / Day 3 - Sets of 7.....Wk 2 (Sets of 8)....Wk 3 (Sets of 7).....Wk 4 (Sets of 9)

* After Week 4, take your original 10RM and do a max rep test....Write that number down.


Phase 2 (Metabolic Stress) - The pump you get when you hit a rep range you aren't yet adapted to. Increases metabolic by-products like lactate and triggers hormone cascades.

Duration: 4 weeks / Use your new RM to calculate the percentages week to week / Keep rest to a minimum between sets
Workout length: 30 minutes (Get as many sets in as possible in this time frame)

Week 5 / Day 1: 40% of new RM....Wk 6 (50%).....Wk 7 (40%).....Wk 8 (60%)
Week 5 / Day 2: 50% of new RM....Wk 6 (60%).....Wk 7 (50%).....Wk 8 (70%)
Week 5 / Day 3: 60% of new RM....Wk 6 (70%).....Wk 7 (60%).....Wk 8 (80%)

* After Week 8, test your new RM and write that number down.


Phase 3 (Muscle Damage) - Usually associated with DOMS from high volume programs.

Duration: 4 weeks / Use your new RM to calculate the percentages week to week / Rest as necessary between sets
Workout length: 30 minutes (Get as many sets in as possible in this time frame)

Week 9 / Day 1: 50% of new RM....Wk 10 (60%)....Wk 11 (50%)....Wk 12 (70%)
Week 9 / Day 2: 60% of new RM....Wk 10 (70%)....Wk 11 (60%)....Wk 12 (80%)
Week 9 / Day 3: 70% of new RM....Wk 10 (80%)....Wk 11 (70%)....Wk 12 (90%)
 
Can quick lifts build muscles?

Definitely, if you do them over and over again.

Olympic weightlifting (my sport) spends most of its time in the power zone, 1-3 reps, very quick, very heavy. We also do some grinds (mostly squats), but the pulls are quick.

13f340ddbe65a32a1bcc80e402182130.jpg


23415bb2e60ee844f0d0fbe3e55edcef.jpg




But the muscles won't be as big and puffy, with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, as bodybuilders, who focus on size over strength or power.
 
Impressive physiques but you know I could point to many that look fat yet still win Gold medals. Your examples are outliers. My original question was more about asking whether the best strategy to build muscle mass or maintain it is using the lift quick all done in ten seconds regime.
 
Impressive physiques but you know I could point to many that look fat yet still win Gold medals. Your examples are outliers. My original question was more about asking whether the best strategy to build muscle mass or maintain it is using the lift quick all done in ten seconds regime.
Mass moves mass, the reason why they might carry some cushioning is it improves performance.

Look at some of the studies by schoenfeld (spelling) - load is a critical factor as opposed to density in terms of hypertrophy
 
Impressive physiques but you know I could point to many that look fat yet still win Gold medals. Your examples are outliers. My original question was more about asking whether the best strategy to build muscle mass or maintain it is using the lift quick all done in ten seconds regime.

The lean-ness mostly depends on the weight class.

You're likely to get a variety of answers, though, unless you get more specific about what you mean by build or maintain muscle mass.

If your question is about muscle mass in terms of athleticism and functional strength, yes, quick lifts are great for that -- there is a reason why athletes of many sports do power cleans.

If your question is about being maximally swole -- you should follow a body building protocol.

And there are points on the spectrum in between the extremes.
 
Hello,

Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?
As stated above, yes it is possible, as @watchnerd said. By the way, nice physique on the 2nd photo ;)

For instance if you consider A+A training with heavy kb snatches:
5 heavy snatches on the right (roughly 10s)
rest using talk test
5 snatches on the left
rest using talk test
repeat between 20 and 40 minutes

This will lead to body composition improvement - meaning more "dense".

There are 3 mechanisms for building muscle - Mechanical Tension, Metabolic Stress, Muscle Damage.
The below video describes that, using calisthenics. Then it can be easily "transfered" any other tool.
Ross Edgley is an impressive athlete:
- Swimming around great britain
- 30 marathons in 30 days in the morning, fasted
- Triathlon with a tree log
- Marathon dragging a car
etc...


Otherwise, there is the Dry Fighting Weight:
As mentioned in this article, diet is also an important factor.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

In addition to my above statement, in this article, there's a section called "Time Under Tension"

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Since discovering this site I have been struck by the tendency towards workouts employing short bursts of work followed by long rests and am intrigued to how this approach would apply itself to bodybuilding given one of the tenets of the pursuit of gaining muscle mass is TUT.

Alactic + Aerobic. A+ A Training

Yes, StrongFirst promotes short burst of work, followed by long rest periods with Strength Movements.

The focus of this reply is only on Alactic Training.

The Alactic (Phosphagen) Energy System

Maximum Strength, Power and Speed are optimally trained and developed in this energy system.

That because Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber utilize ATP (Phosphagen) which is quickly depleted in around 15 seconds or less.

That means once ATP is exhausted, you are not working the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, the workload is shifted to the Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

ATP Muscle Restoration

ATP is restored to the muscle with rest periods.

30 Seconds: Approximately, 50% of ATP is restored.

45 seconds: Up to 79% of ATP is restored.

3 Minutes Plus. Right at 100% of ATP is restored.

The more ATP restored, the greater the force (Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed) you produce; the more you work the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Bodybuilding and the Glycolytic Energy System

Traditional Hypertrohy Bodybuilding utilizes higher repetitions with shorter rest periods.

This method produces "The Pump", Metabolic Stress. "The Pump" increase lactate which triggers the anabolic muscle building effect.

The Glycolytic Energy System is a movement or exercise that it over thirty second to about two minutes.

Blood Flow Restriction For Hypertrophy

Higher repetitions with shorter rest periods between sets restrict blood flow back to the heart. Blood is trapped in the muscles, ballooning them up, producing "The Pump".

However, Traditional Hypertrophy of higher repetition/short rest periods between sets alone leads to a decrease in Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Longer Rest Periods for Hypertrophy

Research by Schoenfeld found that when longer rest period are taken between Hypertrophy Sets, strength was increased along with muscle mass. However, Hypertrophy Training that employs shorter rest periods appears to be more effective.

Employing Short Burst For Bodybuilding Gains

Dr Jonathan Oliver's research examined how increasing muscle mass could be obtain while increasing Maximum Strength, Power and Speed; rather than losing them with the Traditional Hypertrophy Bodybuilding Protocol.

This method ensured that athlete got bigger, stronger and faster.

Cluster Sets Hypertrophy Training

Oliver's research determined that Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training was effective at increasing muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing the other Strength Components.

Oliver's Cluster Set Hypertrophy Set Training revolves around performing Low Repetition of around 1-5 non-stop. A short rest period of around 15 to 45 seconds is taken. Then another Low Repetition Set is performed, followed by another 15 to 45 second rest period.

Each 1 - 5 Repetition Set of non-stop repetition is a cluster. Let's say you perform 5 of those sets for 3 repetitions. That means you have performed at total of 15 repetition in that one Cluster Set.

You then take a 3 minute rest period before performing them again. Let's say you do that 4 more times. That means you have performed a total of 60 repetition for that one exercise.

With that said, a greater increased was achieved with the Traditional Hypertrophy Bodybuilding Protocol; primarily driven the greater Pump, increase in lactate.

However, Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy came in a close second, while enabling an increase in the other Strength Components.

Obviously TUT is pretty much the opposite of the kind of short duration sets highlighted here.

Time Under Tension

TUT does to some extent increased lactate, which triggers the anabolic effect. However, there are other components that need to be focused on.

As Chris Thibaudeau (Strength and Bodybuilding Coach) states, "...TUT. It's not a primary factor involved in growth, and the set duration itself isn't really important." Source: Question of Strength 61 | T Nation ...which Pet posted.

Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?

Absolutely

Dr Jonathan Oliver Custer Set Hypertrophy Training Protocol has proven that.

With that in mind, one of the vital components of it is in performing each repetition in a set of the exercise with as much Power and Speed as possible. Doing so innervates that Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, increasing their size as well as Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

Once your Power and/or Speed drops, terminate the set.

Continuing in a fatigued state isn't working the bigger, faster, stronger Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber. The slower, smaller, Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber are.

Olympic Lifters

Many utilize Cluster Set in their training.

Dr Greg Haff (former Olympic Lifter) goes into it in this presentation...

Cluster Sets - Current Methods for Introducing Variations to Training Sets, with Greg Haff
 
Last edited:
What about Pavel's Fast 10s workout? It's in a newsletter from the old organization. I wasn't sure the accepted rules about posting it here but a Google search will find it for you.
 
In the past I have followed many bodybuilding programmes with varying amounts of success. My goals though in the last few years have been more geared towards general fitness rather than body building but I have remained interested in the subject and still read many articles .

Since discovering this site I have been struck by the tendency towards workouts employing short bursts of work followed by long rests and am intrigued to how this approach would apply itself to bodybuilding given one of the tenets of the pursuit of gaining muscle mass is TUT. Obviously TUT is pretty much the opposite of the kind of short duration sets highlighted here.

Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?
I guess the first thing to do is to temper your expectations on how big you can "naturally" get. Much of the public really gets duped by the fitness & sporting industry by showcasing chemically enhanced subjects. Steroids are way more prevalent than what most of the public thinks.
When dealing with "natural" athletes/lifters, 90% of hypertrophy is based on maximizing volume & intensity. The rest of the 10% is based in the density driven by the particular scheme. You can go out there and read a bunch of articles and different plans and workouts, but most of them are out there to hook you in to spend money on supplements, books, equipment, etc.

The other part about building mass (without steroids) is calorie intake & hormone optimization. Hormone optimization can (and should) be done without drugs or supplements. This is the life-style stuff like cutting out booze & junk food, getting enough sleep, stress reduction, etc.

So to your question: "Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?" Sure. As long as it's heavy enough, and you do a lot of them, and you eat enough (of the right food). Good Luck!
 
So to your question: "Is it possible to actually build muscle using a quick ten-fifteen second set approach?" Sure. As long as it's heavy enough, and you do a lot of them, and you eat enough (of the right food). Good Luck!

It would be pretty amazing if heavy, explosive lifts didn't also build muscle.

Otherwise, it would imply all gains in the power zone are neurological.
 
I think Chad Waterbury has being saying this for quite some time. By the way @watchnerd Pet' liked a photo in your response to my question with a wink. That wasn't you was it?
 
Impressive physiques but you know I could point to many that look fat yet still win Gold medals. Your examples are outliers. My original question was more about asking whether the best strategy to build muscle mass or maintain it is using the lift quick all done in ten seconds regime.
how do you measure muscle mass? By using machine like Inbody, or by "looking"?
 
I think Chad Waterbury has being saying this for quite some time. By the way @watchnerd Pet' liked a photo in your response to my question with a wink. That wasn't you was it?

No, that photo is Ivan Stoitsov, a 77 kg weight class lifter (he's 5'6").

My photo is in my avatar. I'm 6' / 182 cm and compete in the 102 (non sanctioned) / 109 (sanctioned) kg weight class, where the guys tend to look more like this:

goyyeju7n5sbjedb5h0u




That's Dymtro Chumak, 2018 102 kg-class weightlifter from Ukraine.

The lighter weight class guys tends to compete at lower bodyfat levels than the heavyweights; the taller lifters need higher bodyweight for reasons related to physics of the lifts and recovery from the heavier amounts being lifted.

Here is Lu Xiaojun, 81 kg / 5'7" / 170 cm weight class lifter:

42f285763cd2c86c1c0ca97c46691f14.jpg


f1479d7187d62ce74f22a6d66e454586.jpg
 
Last edited:
Alactic + Aerobic. A+ A Training

Yes, StrongFirst promotes short burst of work, followed by long rest periods with Strength Movements.

The focus of this reply is only on Alactic Training.

The Alactic (Phosphagen) Energy System

Maximum Strength, Power and Speed are optimally trained and developed in this energy system.

That because Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber utilize ATP (Phosphagen) which is quickly depleted in around 15 seconds or less.

That means once ATP is exhausted, you are not working the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, the workload is shifted to the Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

ATP Muscle Restoration

ATP is restored to the muscle with rest periods.

30 Seconds: Approximately, 50% of ATP is restored.

45 seconds: Up to 79% of ATP is restored.

3 Minutes Plus. Right at 100% of ATP is restored.

The more ATP restored, the greater the force (Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed) you produce; the more you work the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Bodybuilding and the Glycolytic Energy System

Traditional Hypertrohy Bodybuilding utilizes higher repetitions with shorter rest periods.

This method produces "The Pump", Metabolic Stress. "The Pump" increase lactate which triggers the anabolic muscle building effect.

The Glycolytic Energy System is a movement or exercise that it over thirty second to about two minutes.

Blood Flow Restriction For Hypertrophy

Higher repetitions with shorter rest periods between sets restrict blood flow back to the heart. Blood is trapped in the muscles, ballooning them up, producing "The Pump".

However, Traditional Hypertrophy of higher repetition/short rest periods between sets alone leads to a decrease in Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Longer Rest Periods for Hypertrophy

Research by Schoenfeld found that when longer rest period are taken between Hypertrophy Sets, strength was increased along with muscle mass. However, Hypertrophy Training that employs shorter rest periods appears to be more effective.

Employing Short Burst For Bodybuilding Gains

Dr Jonathan Oliver's research examined how increasing muscle mass could be obtain while increasing Maximum Strength, Power and Speed; rather than losing them with the Traditional Hypertrophy Bodybuilding Protocol.

This method ensured that athlete got bigger, stronger and faster.

Cluster Sets Hypertrophy Training

Oliver's research determined that Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training was effective at increasing muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing the other Strength Components.

Oliver's Cluster Set Hypertrophy Set Training revolves around performing Low Repetition of around 1-5 non-stop. A short rest period of around 15 to 45 seconds is taken. Then another Low Repetition Set is performed, followed by another 15 to 45 second rest period.

Each 1 - 5 Repetition Set of non-stop repetition is a cluster. Let's say you perform 5 of those sets for 3 repetitions. That means you have performed at total of 15 repetition in that one Cluster Set.

You then take a 3 minute rest period before performing them again. Let's say you do that 4 more times. That means you have performed a total of 60 repetition for that one exercise.

With that said, a greater increased was achieved with the Traditional Hypertrophy Bodybuilding Protocol; primarily driven the greater Pump, increase in lactate.

However, Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy came in a close second, while enabling an increase in the other Strength Components.



Time Under Tension

TUT does to some extent increased lactate, which triggers the anabolic effect. However, there are other components that need to be focused on.

As Chris Thibaudeau (Strength and Bodybuilding Coach) states, "...TUT. It's not a primary factor involved in growth, and the set duration itself isn't really important." Source: Question of Strength 61 | T Nation ...which Pet posted.



Absolutely

Dr Jonathan Oliver Custer Set Hypertrophy Training Protocol has proven that.

With that in mind, one of the vital components of it is in performing each repetition in a set of the exercise with as much Power and Speed as possible. Doing so innervates that Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, increasing their size as well as Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

Once your Power and/or Speed drops, terminate the set.

Continuing in a fatigued state isn't working the bigger, faster, stronger Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber. The slower, smaller, Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber are.

Olympic Lifters

Many utilize Cluster Set in their training.

Dr Greg Haff (former Olympic Lifter) goes into it in this presentation...

Cluster Sets - Current Methods for Introducing Variations to Training Sets, with Greg Haff

Correct me if I'm wrong but i also remember Oliver's study that showed clusters a closer 2nd in hypertrophy to traditional had both groups using the same %1RM for weight. I thought he mentioned wondering about even better results with higher % use for cluster sets which would be possible with 8*5 instead of 4*10. Clusters for the win!
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom