Bodyweight Bodyweight Fitness Program

[IcyROM]

IcyRom I've been doing Get Strong for about 3 or 4 months. I think it's a really good bodyweight program and I like my results. My strength has definetly improved. I do through in some kettlebell swings a couple days a week for endurance. Another book I would recommend is C-Mass. https://www.amazon.com/C-Mass-Calis...04984504&sr=8-7&keywords=convict+conditioning

Yes Al Kavadlo seems like a good author.

Can I ask about your improvements in strength and muscle mass with his book? Or using that book C-Mass?

My ideal physique would be what these guys look like here. They are very strong and look very muscular and definitely would be good goals for me:


So I'm looking for a routine that can slowly get there if I put in training and eat well. Al Kavadlo does not seem very big but he is very strong so I want to make sure that program can lead to those results both results. Is that very logical?

Thank you very much for all the help Shawn

 

[User 7569]

IcyRom I've been doing Get Strong for about 3 or 4 months. I think it's a really good bodyweight program and I like my results. My strength has definetly improved. I do through in some kettlebell swings a couple days a week for endurance. Another book I would recommend is C-Mass. https://www.amazon.com/C-Mass-Calis...04984504&sr=8-7&keywords=convict+conditioning

+1 for C Mass, forgot to mention that one. Forget if there is a program in it but the principles are great for gaining some muscle..

 

[Shawn]

Yes Al Kavadlo seems like a good author.

Can I ask about your improvements in strength and muscle mass with his book? Or using that book C-Mass?

My ideal physique would be what these guys look like here. They are very strong and look very muscular and definitely would be good goals for me:


So I'm looking for a routine that can slowly get there if I put in training and eat well. Al Kavadlo does not seem very big but he is very strong so I want to make sure that program can lead to those results both results. Is that very logical?

Thank you very much for all the help Shawn

Being close to fifty and my genetics I don't think I can get any bigger without enhancements, Lol. I'm the same height as Al, 5' 11'. I think he's 160lbs, I'm 170lbs. My results are I look more muscular and have gotten stronger. I'm able to do harder calisthenics where I was not able to come close before. Your muscles seem to get more dense with progressive calisthenics.

I have read C-Mass but have not used in extensively. It is written for gaining mass with just calisthenics. There are differant split examples with rep and set recommendations.

Honestly there is nothing magic. You're not going to get big over night. You have to find what works for You. Something may put size on someone else but do nothing for you because we're all differant. Some could swear by high reps while other low reps. My suggestion to You is pick a program and stick with it for 6 weeks. My opinion is age and genetics has alot to do with how much size we can put on naturally.


We seem to focus on the outcome instead of the process.By focusing on the process doesn't mean you won't reach a goal or should never shoot for one. If You focus on the process You should have no problem reaching Your goals. Success is just a byproduct. Don't worry about it and have fun with it. Just remember You have to have a proccess or journey to get somewhere.

 

[Steve Freides]

My ideal physique would be what these guys look like here.

I think one thing that gets overlooked sometimes is that the kettlebell or barbell can be a more effective, easier to program way of achieving one's strength and/or body composition goals than just bodyweight exercise. I know, I know - yes, you can do it all with only bodyweight, but the relative ease of adjusting the resistance and therefore the level of difficulty can be of great value.

And there is good carryover, e.g., when I worked up to a 1/2 bw kettlebell one-arm press, I was able to do wall-supported handstand pushups the first time I tried them, able to do pullups, etc.

-S-

 

[Shawn]

I think one thing that gets overlooked sometimes is that the kettlebell or barbell can be a more effective, easier to program way of achieving one's strength and/or body composition goals than just bodyweight exercise. I know, I know - yes, you can do it all with only bodyweight, but the relative ease of adjusting the resistance and therefore the level of difficulty can be of great value.

And there is good carryover, e.g., when I worked up to a 1/2 bw kettlebell one-arm press, I was able to do wall-supported handstand pushups the first time I tried them, able to do pullups, etc.

-S-

I agree Steve. When I was doing S&S I was surprise at some of the bodyweight stuff I was able to do. With a KB what would you recommend for IcyROM's goals?

 

[IcyROM]

Being close to fifty and my genetics I don't think I can get any bigger without enhancements, Lol. I'm the same height as Al, 5' 11'. I think he's 160lbs, I'm 170lbs. My results are I look more muscular and have gotten stronger. I'm able to do harder calisthenics where I was not able to come close before. Your muscles seem to get more dense with progressive calisthenics.

I have read C-Mass but have not used in extensively. It is written for gaining mass with just calisthenics. There are differant split examples with rep and set recommendations.

Honestly there is nothing magic. You're not going to get big over night. You have to find what works for You. Something may put size on someone else but do nothing for you because we're all differant. Some could swear by high reps while other low reps. My suggestion to You is pick a program and stick with it for 6 weeks. My opinion is age and genetics has alot to do with how much size we can put on naturally.


We seem to focus on the outcome instead of the process.By focusing on the process doesn't mean you won't reach a goal or should never shoot for one. If You focus on the process You should have no problem reaching Your goals. Success is just a byproduct. Don't worry about it and have fun with it. Just remember You have to have a proccess or journey to get somewhere.

I am 28 years old so I think I can definitely gain muscle size so I really want to select programs that do muscle growth and develop a lot of strength.

C-Mass looks good but I don't know if it works or not. I don't know anybody who uses it in Dragondoor so I'm scared. I really want to finally use something that works and not just something people think will work for me :/


Yes I know nothing is magical and I don't want some quick fix that doesn't work. I understand I have to work hard. I just want to make sure it works well.

Thanks very much Shawn.

 

[IcyROM]

I think one thing that gets overlooked sometimes is that the kettlebell or barbell can be a more effective, easier to program way of achieving one's strength and/or body composition goals than just bodyweight exercise. I know, I know - yes, you can do it all with only bodyweight, but the relative ease of adjusting the resistance and therefore the level of difficulty can be of great value.

And there is good carryover, e.g., when I worked up to a 1/2 bw kettlebell one-arm press, I was able to do wall-supported handstand pushups the first time I tried them, able to do pullups, etc.

-S-

This is OK for me I think because I am not looking for an easy solution or anything. I will work hard. I just need a program to give guidance and that can lead to good results. Thank you for the help Steven.

 

[Carl]

Great tips here already. Don't underestimate the role of genetics with size gains (whether you train weights or bodyweight). We can all only do the best with what we have so better to compare ourselves to ourselves not others.

For bodyweight resources:

-Pavel - Naked Warrior and Beyond Bodybuilding (this has some great bw programming)
-Anything by the Kavadlo brothers (Al and Danny) - cannot recommend their stuff enough
-Anything by @Karen Smith
-Anything by Steve Maxwell (great tips for the older/long term trainee from someone that is still knocking out pistols, 1 armed chins and push ups in his 60s!)

There's a lifetime's worth of great info from any and all of the above. Dig deep and train hard.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Body composition can also be improved - let's say accelerated - with proper nutrition.

Then, programming and reps/sets/rests will also play a significant role. To make things simple, 1-5 for strength, 6-12 for a mix of strength and mass/hypertrophy. Everyone respond differently to a program. Some will get extremely muscular using only low reps, others (like myself for instance) need more volume (and food !) to get a body composition change.

In all cases, targetting big moves to get a balanced muscle mass will be a solid approach. If one is after strength, form does not have to replace function.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

@ IcyROM,
For mass you should be using external resistance, at least incorporating it into your routine with bodyweight. One of the limiting factors for bodyweight for mass is the challenge of some of the tougher movements through a complete ROM - because of positioning/mechanics it is not always possible.

After that a lot of bodyweight efficiency comes down to knowledge of many variations and how to tweak the moves so you can operate in a rep/set range that will encourage size and strength. It also helps to use rest/pause or drop sets, also to manipulate for target rep ranges.

I do not have specific advice, but the basics of any approach are the same - push/pull/squat/hinge/locomotion.

Suspension rings will be a nice addition to pure bodyweight, as are bars and such to allow you to cantilever upper or lower body.

 

[Steve Freides]

Yes I know nothing is magical and I don't want some quick fix that doesn't work. I understand I have to work hard. I just want to make sure it works well.

By "easier", I don't mean you'll have to work less hard, or to suggest you're looking for an easy way out. The barbell is the time-tested implement of first choice for increasing strength and adding muscle.

By "easier" I mean you will find fewer stumbling blocks along the way and that, with the same effort and hard work, you'll likely get stronger faster.

There are plenty of things one _can_ do, e.g., when I was on the road for a couple of weeks, I used bodyweight, playground equipment, and the single kettlebell I'd brought with me. I did just fine - got exercise, kept up my pressing practice, etc. - but that doesn't mean it's what I'd choose to do all the time.

This is a journey we each take and I wouldn't limit myself to looking like one person or group of people, or using only one exercise modality. Try a variety of things, see what works for you, and don't forget to include mobility and flexibility work.

-S-

 

[IcyROM]

Great tips here already. Don't underestimate the role of genetics with size gains (whether you train weights or bodyweight). We can all only do the best with what we have so better to compare ourselves to ourselves not others.

For bodyweight resources:

-Pavel - Naked Warrior and Beyond Bodybuilding (this has some great bw programming)
-Anything by the Kavadlo brothers (Al and Danny) - cannot recommend their stuff enough
-Anything by @Karen Smith
-Anything by Steve Maxwell (great tips for the older/long term trainee from someone that is still knocking out pistols, 1 armed chins and push ups in his 60s!)

There's a lifetime's worth of great info from any and all of the above. Dig deep and train hard.

Hello Carl thank you for the response.

I have done Naked Warrior and used Al Kavadlo's books because they were recommendations in another forum. I think I can say that they were not very good for growing muscle in my experience. So I am now looking for something else that does work for goals of strength and muscle.

I don't know who Steve Maxwell is but I'm not very old so maybe it is not as important for me.

Bye bye

 

[IcyROM]

Hello,

Body composition can also be improved - let's say accelerated - with proper nutrition.

Then, programming and reps/sets/rests will also play a significant role. To make things simple, 1-5 for strength, 6-12 for a mix of strength and mass/hypertrophy. Everyone respond differently to a program. Some will get extremely muscular using only low reps, others (like myself for instance) need more volume (and food !) to get a body composition change.

In all cases, targetting big moves to get a balanced muscle mass will be a solid approach. If one is after strength, form does not have to replace function.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Hello thank you for the answer.

Yes I am looking for a program that is a mix of strength and mass so with repetitions of 6-12 reps. This is why I think some of the things recommended might not be good ideas for me.

The Recommended Routine seems to have these reps so it seems like a good choice.

 

[IcyROM]

@ IcyROM,
For mass you should be using external resistance, at least incorporating it into your routine with bodyweight. One of the limiting factors for bodyweight for mass is the challenge of some of the tougher movements through a complete ROM - because of positioning/mechanics it is not always possible.

After that a lot of bodyweight efficiency comes down to knowledge of many variations and how to tweak the moves so you can operate in a rep/set range that will encourage size and strength. It also helps to use rest/pause or drop sets, also to manipulate for target rep ranges.

I do not have specific advice, but the basics of any approach are the same - push/pull/squat/hinge/locomotion.

Suspension rings will be a nice addition to pure bodyweight, as are bars and such to allow you to cantilever upper or lower body.

Hello could you explain what you mean on your first paragraph?

Why is external resistance needed for mass but not for strength?

Thank you and have a good day

 

[IcyROM]

By "easier", I don't mean you'll have to work less hard, or to suggest you're looking for an easy way out. The barbell is the time-tested implement of first choice for increasing strength and adding muscle.

By "easier" I mean you will find fewer stumbling blocks along the way and that, with the same effort and hard work, you'll likely get stronger faster.

There are plenty of things one _can_ do, e.g., when I was on the road for a couple of weeks, I used bodyweight, playground equipment, and the single kettlebell I'd brought with me. I did just fine - got exercise, kept up my pressing practice, etc. - but that doesn't mean it's what I'd choose to do all the time.

This is a journey we each take and I wouldn't limit myself to looking like one person or group of people, or using only one exercise modality. Try a variety of things, see what works for you, and don't forget to include mobility and flexibility work.

-S-

Yes thank you for the answer.

There is a writer named Dan John who says that he likes sticking to one training modality because he wastes less "thinking power" when he uses lots of different equipment and variables. So he can use more of that power to just focus on the workout. He also recommends the beginner to only use 45 lb and 25 lb plates to simplify everything and not let confusion over loading small weight.

I think in the same way and I think for me, the best idea is to stick to something (like Bodyweight fitness) and get good at it and not lose mental energy in what other many tools I can use. So it's a restriction but I think a good idea for me personally.

I am sure you can develop the best muscles and strength using all the best tools at all times but I see many people only use a few tools and a minimalist way and can grow lots of muscle and strength and I think that's better for me right now.

Thank you for the help Steve!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hello could you explain what you mean on your first paragraph?

Why is external resistance needed for mass but not for strength?

Thank you and have a good day

In my experience and observation, mass (predominantly hypertrophy) gains come best at a 6-10/8-12 rep range, 2-3 sets and with a full ROM. When it comes to bodyweight it becomes tricky to manage the rep ranges as each movement rep range is largely determined by how difficult the movement. Same with ROM, with many of the more difficult forms using somewhat abbreviated range. This is helped considerably by having a full jungle gym, rings, bars etc.

I am no bodyweight expert, but when younger I was almost exclusively bodyweight for a number of years. I found I was able to get good conditioning, good strength gains, and composition was good. But I did not gain size anything like I did when using external resistance. As an example, some of the movements such as one arm pushup rep range is low, two hand pushup is high.

What I have found since, is that even a relatively small total amount of external load training really compliments a good bodyweight program. You can certainly get some mass gains without, but will come much slower.

I am actually back to this mode, about 1/3 of my work is bodyweight or loaded bodyweight. At my current encyclopedia of bodyweight movements, I would need a jungle gym and rings to get the same workout I get with my kettlebells and a couple of sandbags.

 

[IcyROM]

In my experience and observation, mass (predominantly hypertrophy) gains come best at a 6-10/8-12 rep range, 2-3 sets and with a full ROM. When it comes to bodyweight it becomes tricky to manage the rep ranges as each movement rep range is largely determined by how difficult the movement. Same with ROM, with many of the more difficult forms using somewhat abbreviated range. This is helped considerably by having a full jungle gym, rings, bars etc.

I am no bodyweight expert, but when younger I was almost exclusively bodyweight for a number of years. I found I was able to get good conditioning, good strength gains, and composition was good. But I did not gain size anything like I did when using external resistance. As an example, some of the movements such as one arm pushup rep range is low, two hand pushup is high.

What I have found since, is that even a relatively small total amount of external load training really compliments a good bodyweight program. You can certainly get some mass gains without, but will come much slower.

I am actually back to this mode, about 1/3 of my work is bodyweight or loaded bodyweight. At my current encyclopedia of bodyweight movements, I would need a jungle gym and rings to get the same workout I get with my kettlebells and a couple of sandbags.

It sounds to me that whatever quality you want to develop that needs a rep range, it will be harder with BW because the reps are predetermined. So strength needs 1-5 reps, muscle 6-12 reps. Why is possible to develop lots of strength (which needs a rep range) but muscle (which does also) not as well?

I think the way people develop strength with Bodyweight fitness is by using progressive calisthenics and modifying movements so they are challenging but doable (1-5 reps like Naked Warrior using elevations). So we can use this same method of regression to make it a bit easier even and so do 6-12 reps no?


I have heard that something very important for muscle is good diet. I plan to count calories and make sure I eat protein. Is it possible in your younger years you did not build much muscle because you did not count calories and make sure to eat enough?


Pavel Tsatsouline says in Naked Warrior that tension is tension and the muscles don't know where it comes from. If I use Bodyweight Fitness exercises where reps are challenging and eat well, how could the muscles know that I'm not using an external weight and choose to not grow?

I am confused because I thought Bodyweight exercises can build lots of muscles but it sounds like extra weights are necessary which is very interesting.

Thank you for the help.

 

[305pelusa]

Well that's a username that's hard to forget. I remember you man, from the DragonDoor forum. No one seemed to ask about your strength levels in particular but you should have mentioned them. I think people here are assuming you're a Novice man.

Did you ever get that 50 kg added Pull-up I recommended you get BTW? Neat to see you here.

 

[Steve Freides]

@IcyROM, one _can_ waste mental energy on a complex program, but that doesn't mean it will happen to everyone. I train very simply but I do different things: skin-the-cat on the rings to warmup, one-armed pushups, and barbell deadlifts were my workout today.

It's a journey - pick a path, and bodyweight is a fine path, and start walking. Please keep us posted on your progress. A training log on this web site is a good idea.

-S-

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

It sounds to me that whatever quality you want to develop that needs a rep range, it will be harder with BW because the reps are predetermined. So strength needs 1-5 reps, muscle 6-12 reps. Why is possible to develop lots of strength (which needs a rep range) but muscle (which does also) not as well?

I think the way people develop strength with Bodyweight fitness is by using progressive calisthenics and modifying movements so they are challenging but doable (1-5 reps like Naked Warrior using elevations). So we can use this same method of regression to make it a bit easier even and so do 6-12 reps no?


I have heard that something very important for muscle is good diet. I plan to count calories and make sure I eat protein. Is it possible in your younger years you did not build much muscle because you did not count calories and make sure to eat enough?


Pavel Tsatsouline says in Naked Warrior that tension is tension and the muscles don't know where it comes from. If I use Bodyweight Fitness exercises where reps are challenging and eat well, how could the muscles know that I'm not using an external weight and choose to not grow?

I am confused because I thought Bodyweight exercises can build lots of muscles but it sounds like extra weights are necessary which is very interesting.

Thank you for the help.

The 'trick' to building strength and increasing muscle mass is generating sufficient tension in a muscle. It's usually easier to generate greater tension in a muscle with external resistance than it is using bodyweight exercises, if 'easier' is the right word: There's nothing easy about bench pressing 80% of your max!

The way I see it is that when the resistance is external, the muscles have less 'choice' as to whether or not they are required to generate the tension: They'll go into 'do or die' mode to complete the lift (so you don't die getting crushed by a heavy barbell, drop a kettlebell onto your head etc.) whereas in most bodyweight exercises, failing a repetition is rarely life-threatening - failing a one-arm push up may be embarrassing but it probably won't kill you - so your neuromuscular system is more likely to give up and allow the repetition to fail in order to conserve energy and protect itself from potential injury rather than go 'all-out' in order to complete the movement.

Developing the 'knack' of generating that kind of potentially life saving muscular tension in pure bodyweight movements presents more of a mental challenge than a physical one. It's certainly possible, however, and there are plenty of very strong people out there who have made incredible gains using primarily bodyweight movements.