all posts post new thread

Bodyweight Bodyweight + Martial Arts

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
mightstone2k

mightstone2k

Level 6 Valued Member
Introduction: I am a 30 year-old male military member. I have been strength training for a while, but started with StrongFirst in January 2015 when I started S&S. Kettlebells have been my primary training focus ever since, with some interludes (basic training, etc.). My current working weight is 28 kg; I have not achieved Simple. I also have about fifteen years of experience in tang soo do, and I intend to get back into martial arts at my current assignment.

Situation: I have been following Karen Smith's bodyweight strength experiment for the past eight weeks. I did it for six weeks while TDY and surprised myself by passing the Air Force PFT without doing any test-specific training. I also have been doing swings on the off days So I am going to stick with bodyweight training for a while, with an eye toward the NW goals. I've not enjoyed trying to fit GTG into my schedule; I prefer a dedicated training session.

Problem: There is a boxing class on Saturdays and muay Thai on Sundays. The instructor leaves in December. I want to attend both classes so I can maximize my martial arts training while I can. But I do not want to give up on my bodyweight strength or swings.

Proposed solution: Continue following the bodyweight strength experiment, but add swings, S&S style, at the end of each session. My week would look like this:
  • Monday: BW light day + swings
  • Tuesday: rest
  • Wednesday: BW heavy day + swings
  • Thursday: rest
  • Friday: BW medium day + swings
  • Saturday: boxing (2 hours)
  • Sunday: muay Thai (1 hour)
Issues: The idea of adding swings after my strength training sessions sounds like a recipe for poor swings, especially on the heavy day. Swings have done wonders for me in terms of conditioning and I don't want to give them up. Are there exercises that I should cut from the bodyweight program? OAPU and pistols are my main goals for bodyweight training, although I wouldn't say no to pull-ups or hanging leg raises. I enjoy the isometrics and believe they are doing me good, but don't know if they should be trimmed out.

My thought: Use the OAPU/pistol templates from the bodyweight strength experiment and add swings. Perhaps do isometrics or hanging leg raise progressions after swings if I'm feeling spunky on a given day. If I want to train pullups, I can do the 3RM Fighter Pullup Program.

What does the StrongFirst community think? @Karen Smith, I would really appreciate your insight, if you have the time.
 
Off topic: Coming as a retired Air Force Msgt, I like the way you write, problem to solution.
 
I don't know anything about OP, but something about his request strikes a common chord among people- one which reminds me of fear of missing out on something, or not achieving the most they can manifested in difficulty choosing what to do, so do everything. More is not always better!

Everyone has a overall capacity (sum of lots of included capacities) to do things, so many hours in a day to do them in, and a limited ability to recover and thrive. I'm not sure taking 2 different marital arts classes at the same time one day apart is going to maximize your MA training. If you do one class a week, and a couple supporting days working on that weeks skills each week, plus your other training, that's a lot. If you try to do two, it's much harder to do the couple extra days needed to really internalize what you're learning in each, plus do anything else. With different systems of blocking, punching, footwork, etc, it's that much more confusing, since most people learn by repetition of the same thing until it's second nature. Repeating two things makes a good chance you learn neither long term.

I'd recommend making the StrongChoice for you- do what you really like the most or think you'd benefit the most from, then put all you have into it. Monitor your other bodyweight work and swings you ensure you're supporting what you're doing rather than detracting from it, then give 100% as long as it's producing the results you want.
 
mightstone2k said:
I also have about fifteen years of experience in tang soo do, and I intend to get back into martial arts at my current assignment.
Click to expand...

I agree with @Matts on his points. You can't have it all, at least not at the same time. After 15 years Tang Soo Do training you should have a 4th Dan level achieved 2-3 years ago if training has been unbroken. You must choose, do you want to excel in MA? If so your experience is enough to self train, at the least doing forms will keep your skills sharp, boxing is boxing, Muay Thai is not Tang Soo Do. No disrespect to either discipline but if you want to work toward 5th Dan why not keep training in the art you have invested so heavily in, without the distractions or confusion presented by training in other arts.

I would continue with S&S along with some bodyweight work and have it as an adjunct to your Tang Soo Do training and not the main attraction. Self training with focused intent will give you insight into technique you can't get in a class environment, teaching will give you even more.

These things are probably known to you but sometimes a little reminder helps.
 
I tend to agree with @Matts and @Bret S.
If a person wants to get good at something (by any real definition of the term) then they usually need clarity of purpose, undivided attention, and singular laser like focus.
This is hard enough to achieve on a single goal, let alone multiple ones...
 
@Matts @Bret S. @offwidth

I appreciate the reminder, gents. But I’m not interested in going farther down the TSD road. I made third dan, then stopped training five years ago when I started law school. I did Krav Maga for a few months about two years ago (until the instructors moved), and I just want to get back in the habit of punching, kicking, and moving around like a fighter. I’m locked on base at this assignment, so it’s something to fill my long weekend days. And once a week doesn’t seem like it’ll be enough.

Strength training is my main love these days. I will admit, I am frustrated at not having achieved Simple after three and a half years. And that’s with having seen an SFG a few times at my last assignment, and buying a 28 kg bell to bridge the gap from 24 to 32. Bodyweight training had an unexpected carryover effect to my PFT at the TDY I just left, which is why I want to focus on it for now. Swings, despite my supremely slow progress, have been a very effective conditioning tool that I don't want to give up (and who knows, maybe the tension practice will help me get to the mythical 32 kg level). The martial arts are simply because I want to have fun.
 
sounds like your martial arts is just for fun, doesn't sound like it would interfere with anything, but I wouldn't expect to get a lot better only practicing each art once a week.

if you want to get good at pistols and one arm pushups, be as specific as possible. practice those. everything else is extra.

I would suggest moving your mindset away from bodyweight having carry over to other skills, I suppose it does, but why focus on that, and not on the skills themselves?
 
Jak Nieuwenhuis said:
sounds like your martial arts is just for fun, doesn't sound like it would interfere with anything, but I wouldn't expect to get a lot better only practicing each art once a week.

if you want to get good at pistols and one arm pushups, be as specific as possible. practice those. everything else is extra.

I would suggest moving your mindset away from bodyweight having carry over to other skills, I suppose it does, but why focus on that, and not on the skills themselves?
Click to expand...
The carryover effect is simply a reason I’m emphasizing bodyweight over kettlebells. Achieving the OAPU and pistol are my focus.

I have seen good training programs focused solely on the OAPU, but not any for pistols. My copy of Naked Warrior hasn’t been unpacked yet, so apologies if this is answered in there. But what is an effective way to train pistols using a 3/week, light-medium-heavy approach, similar to outlined in this article* on the OAPU?

* A 6-Week Program to Master the OA/OAOL Push-up | StrongFirst. Having issues linking in-text on my phone.
 
mightstone2k said:
The carryover effect is simply a reason I’m emphasizing bodyweight over kettlebells. Achieving the OAPU and pistol are my focus.

I have seen good training programs focused solely on the OAPU, but not any for pistols. My copy of Naked Warrior hasn’t been unpacked yet, so apologies if this is answered in there. But what is an effective way to train pistols using a 3/week, light-medium-heavy approach, similar to outlined in this article* on the OAPU?

* A 6-Week Program to Master the OA/OAOL Push-up | StrongFirst. Having issues linking in-text on my phone.
Click to expand...

If your goal is OAPU and Pistol squats, why not unpack Naked Warrior and read it?

A light-medium-heavy training program would be.. less than optimal for pistols..

You could double, triple, and quadruple your max for pistols and simply start with sets of 2 till you reach the number, then progress to sets of 3, then to sets of 4, then retest max, start over

for instance, say you can do 5 pistols on each leg.

Light - 10 pistols each leg, sets of 2
Medium, 15 pistols each leg, sets of 2
Heavy - 20 pistols each leg, sets of 2

next week do sets of 3 until you reach that same number (10, 15, or 20)

the week after, sets of 4, etc.

is this making sense?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jak Nieuwenhuis said:
If your goal is OAPU and Pistol squats, why not unpack Naked Warrior and read it?

A light-medium-heavy training program would be.. less than optimal for pistols..

You could double, triple, and quadruple your max for pistols and simply start with sets of 2 till you reach the number, then progress to sets of 3, then to sets of 4, then retest max, start over

for instance, say you can do 5 pistols on each leg.

Light - 10 pistols each leg, sets of 2
Medium, 15 pistols each leg, sets of 2
Heavy - 20 pistols each leg, sets of 2

next week do sets of 3 until you reach that same number (10, 15, or 20)

the week after, sets of 4, etc.

is this making sense?
Click to expand...
That does make sense. Sadly, I’m still training my way to a full pistol. Right now I’m doing negatives (on medium day) and sit-to-stand (on heavy day). I’m doing both off four 45# plates presently.

If light-medium-heavy is suboptimal for pistols, what is optimal? I’ve seen the L-M-H template recommended for programming a few times on the bodyweight subforum here.

Books are last on my unpacking list. Kitchen is almost done. But once I unpack it, I will be reading Naked Warrior. Work > regaining the ability to cook well > everything else. I’ve been living in a hotel for the past two months and it made me very sad.
 
mightstone2k said:
That does make sense. Sadly, I’m still training my way to a full pistol. Right now I’m doing negatives (on medium day) and sit-to-stand (on heavy day). I’m doing both off four 45# plates presently.

If light-medium-heavy is suboptimal for pistols, what is optimal? I’ve seen the L-M-H template recommended for programming a few times on the bodyweight subforum here.

Books are last on my unpacking list. Kitchen is almost done. But once I unpack it, I will be reading Naked Warrior. Work > regaining the ability to cook well > everything else. I’ve been living in a hotel for the past two months and it made me very sad.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear you're not feeling your best right now. A lot of the forum members are frequent travelers, I'm sure they can empathize with what you're going through.

Optimal training for pistols, is, in my opinion, grease the groove.

Grease the groove works much better for pistols than any other exercise. Something about the pistol makes it really good for high set / low rep training.

You'll get your full pistol and your full OAPU soon enough. You just gotta practice. Don't worry so much about the programming aspect of things, just focus on visiting the moves as often as possible.

If you do decide to train in the Medium - Light- Heavy format I proposed, I would use box pistols. The same elevation each day. Use a counterweight on your box pistols until you figure out how to contract your glutes and hamstrings without one. The counterweight can be anywhere from 10-35 pounds.

I'd wager that box pistols are all a person really needs in order to benefit from pistol squats.. the full pistol is cooler, harder, but also more stressful to the knee joint.. you could run NW with box pistols for a long time, never touching the full pistol, and still get A LOT out of your practice.

I would even go a far to say that box pistols taught me more about the "high tension techniques" than the full pistol did.

try looking up the "Naked Warrior" video on youtube.. don't want to link it here, but it should be a quick find if it's still uploaded
 
Jak Nieuwenhuis said:
I'd wager that box pistols are all a person really needs in order to benefit from pistol squats.. the full pistol is cooler, harder, but also more stressful to the knee joint.. you could run NW with box pistols for a long time, never touching the full pistol, and still get A LOT out of your practice.
Click to expand...

Agreed...
 
I’d maybe change the swings to your rest days if you’re worried about technique slipping after your bw workout. Don’t be super strict on which bw days are light/med/heavy go more by feel, heavy when feeling awesome light when you’re struggling a bit.
As far as boxing Saturday & Muay Thai Sunday if the instructor is leaving in December then I’d say rip into it. Just pay attention to recovery & don’t over do it. You mightn’t need to swing as often as you’ll be getting a good does of conditioning those two days so maybe just swing on Thursdays rest day. By the time the instructor leaves in December you should be back in the groove of things & be able to train yourself & be more flexible with the days you choose. Good luck .
 
Murrey3 said:
How to master the martial arts? Is there any basic?
Click to expand...
What is it you're asking? Are there basics in MA? Yes, and that is the path to mastery, though it takes dedicated practice under a good instructor for many years. I would say 10 to 12 years minimum until you really only begin some semblance of mastery. This is traditional martial arts I'm speaking of.
 
Bret S. said:
What is it you're asking? Are there basics in MA? Yes, and that is the path to mastery, though it takes dedicated practice under a good instructor for many years. I would say 10 to 12 years minimum until you really only begin some semblance of mastery. This is traditional martial arts I'm speaking of.
Click to expand...

I think you got it what I mean. Anyways 10-12 years are a long long time for someone. I thought it would be only 2-3 years long.
 
Murrey3 said:
I think you got it what I mean. Anyways 10-12 years are a long long time for someone. I thought it would be only 2-3 years long.
Click to expand...
Yes, sorry but when you think about it most arts are the same whether it's ballet or other dancing, rock climbing, parkour, gymnastics... you name it, nobody 'masters' this stuff to any degree in a short time.
In the years I've trained and taught MA there have been many people come and go, the ones gifted with natural athletic ability rarely stick around, initially they excel relying on their natural abilities but as time goes on they see people not nearly as gifted passing them by because of a training ethic they can't maintain. Inevitably their ego won't allow them to do what it takes to truly advance.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom