Boxing strength and power - a debate

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
Yes this is why I always try to mix both hugh reps with lighter weights (here, I mean my regular Indian club training and the crunches / obliques) and low rep high resistance with compound moves (DL, OAOL PU and Dragon Flags).

I do not know if this solution is optimal or not, but I least, I can easily sustain it on a daily basis and I globally perform better (both in boxing and daily life requirement such as any kind of lift).

Recently I learnt that the basic training of Klitschko was throwing at least 500 strikes of each type (jan, hook, etc...)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
To be honest, I've trained twice a week in kickboxing for years, don't remember how many, back in the 2000s. Pushups, crunches etc had absolutely nothing to do with it, except possibly some pushups for warmup, but only for warmup. It was all bag and mitt work, sparring, skipping, jumping, jogging. One of my favourites which I think works as a real quick way to get someone up to a bare minimum of skill and endurance is something my coaches called "jog and jab" where you jog on the spot while jabbing the bag right-left-right-left etc for several minutes at a time, sometimes going full out as fast and as hard as you can. It can be done in the air too if you don't have a bag. I still sometimes do this at home just to keep up some basic coordination for boxing, not that I'll ever box again or use those skills.

I'm totally an amateur at kickboxing even after all those years, but with some certain drills like that one you can get and keep yourself in a position better than other amateurs who don't do that kind of stuff.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Kozushi
I am very lucky having joined a club which mostly relies on technique. The physical training per se consists on multiple sparring rounds and bag / skipping rope intervals.

You are right, and I agree with you, when you say that basically, boxing is a skill oriented sport.

The routine I currently run, which I outlined earlier fits my goals of GPP and also fortunately supports my boxing. The goal of this topic is just to find how one can add some specific training (in addition to the practice in itself)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
I think from an execution stand point it is mostly skill and technique. From a fitness perspective a lot of added volume core work is certainly not necessary.

However, stepping into the ring even for a local amateur bout is a totally different story, boxing and kickboxing. Now you are talking about absorbing perhaps a great deal of abuse, both in the arms/shoulders and midsection. These are muscles that must not only absorb damage, but continue to function well for you to maintain a credible threat.

YMMV
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I think from an execution stand point it is mostly skill and technique. From a fitness perspective a lot of added volume core work is certainly not necessary.

However, stepping into the ring even for a local amateur bout is a totally different story, boxing and kickboxing. Now you are talking about absorbing perhaps a great deal of abuse, both in the arms/shoulders and midsection. These are muscles that must not only absorb damage, but continue to function well for you to maintain a credible threat.

YMMV
I think I was in a constant concussion from you teenage years on. In the matches, we wore no head protection, and just pounded each other in the head. It was super fun and exciting, but I honestly don't see what the point of it was now that I'm older. Fencing or Kendo are pretty similar, but safe.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello,

@Kozushi
I am very lucky having joined a club which mostly relies on technique. The physical training per se consists on multiple sparring rounds and bag / skipping rope intervals.

You are right, and I agree with you, when you say that basically, boxing is a skill oriented sport.

The routine I currently run, which I outlined earlier fits my goals of GPP and also fortunately supports my boxing. The goal of this topic is just to find how one can add some specific training (in addition to the practice in itself)

Kind regards,

Pet'
I'm not an expert on this by any means, but lifting weights for boxing makes as much sense as lifting weights for running - the question is WHY??? You don't lift anything in boxing besides your gloves, and nothing in running besides your legs.

Some guys hold light dumbbells, like 1kg in each hand and practice boxing moves. I've seen this and done this. I've also run swinging 1kg or so light dumbbells as a kind of conditioning for my hands for boxing/kickboxing. Not sure it's of any worth though.

Picking up 50kg for boxing? Who ever does that in a match?

Judo is totally different. We are lifting each other all the time and grip strength is huge. Weights are a massive part of judo.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Hold on there...
Check out all world class sprinters. They, for the most part have well developed upper bodies from weight training. Why? Because arm swing and upper body control has a tremendous impact on running efficiency and ultimately speed.

Even ultra runners can benefit from upper body efficiency and they train by weight training specifically for that.

So lifting weights makes perfect sense for running....
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Hold on there...
Check out all world class sprinters. They, for the most part have well developed upper bodies from weight training. Why? Because arm swing and upper body control has a tremendous impact on running efficiency and ultimately speed.

Even ultra runners can benefit from upper body efficiency and they train by weight training specifically for that.

So lifting weights makes perfect sense for running....
True. Is this just for sprinters though or for the longer distance runners too?

Speaking of which, I ran on the spot today for an hour swinging 2lbs weights in my hands, like I used to do when competing in judo and MMA. It was fun.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I am still wuite new regearding the combination of weightlifting and combat sport. Before, I was more bodyweight and combat sport...

Nonetheless, I already noticed some improvements in my boxing game since I added some resistance training.

For instance:
- Rubber bands (at both knee and hand level) for the shadow boxing. This does not diminish the technique, compared to weight (at least weight heavier than 0.5 or 1kg). Indeed, too heavy weights in the hands tend to orient the force downward, but you basically want it forward. This is why 0.5 or resistance bands seem "better". I also add a resistance band at knee level. The combination of the two permit to gain power and speed without adding muscle mass. To a certain extent, it "tones" the muscle while creating the right functional pattern.
- Heavy deadlifts may help. This is what I noticed. However, I do them with as much power as I can. It helps to throw faster kicks. Plus, it also helps for moving more efficiently. It does not add this kind of "smooth motion", however, it gives speed. The power of a striking also comes from the ground / legs. So strong legs may help, if body mechanics is on the point of course. Following is a link of Carl Froch, who has a better boxing game since he added DL in the routine: How Carl Froch prepared for the biggest fight of his life - Boxing News Plus, DL also transfers quite well to the core so I guess this is why we can see some improvement working on this move, even if we play a sport where there is no lifting involved per se.
- Some footwork with weights in the hands are also fantastic because they force us to get smooth moves with a constraint. Plus it teachs us how to get both strong but relax shoulders. This is something I often do and it works very well.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

LukeV

Level 5 Valued Member
I have no contemporary knowledge as my boxing experience was 30 years ago but I'd be surprised if deadlifting or squatting didn't feature these days given the need for super strong legs to hold you up even when the rest of you is ga-ga
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
True. Is this just for sprinters though or for the longer distance runners too?

Speaking of which, I ran on the spot today for an hour swinging 2lbs weights in my hands, like I used to do when competing in judo and MMA. It was fun.
Like I said ultra runners do it as well.
 

Machete

Halfling Monk, Chaotic Neutral
Elite Certified Instructor
I was a low-level pro MMA fighter with a few amateur boxing matches and a professional one, and have been working with both low to mid-level fighters and exercisers for some time now. I'll try to answer the best I can, because I'm still pretty much punching in the dark.

> A lot of boxing training knowledge is bro science (it's not necessarily bad). I had to write an optimal training program for boxing for a course back in grad school and I think I only found one Russian study comparing the mechanics of the different kinds of punchers. I got a very low grade, because aside from not following APA format I did not write a traditional S&C program that the pros have been using for decades. A lot of coaches are former fighters, and most of mine barely graduated high school, much less pursued advanced degrees in exercise science.

> Boxing is extremely specialized. It's like golf or weightlifting; you have very few movements that you have to execute at a very high level. So shadowboxing, bagwork, drills, and sparring provide the highest ROI. LSD runs I believe are mostly done out of tradition (at least for recreational competitors). I only ran intervals back then, and the common thing my opponents said was that I never stopped moving forward. (Of course, my only pro match was 4 rounds. At the high levels you would need a much bigger aerobic base, fighting 10+ rounds in pro or multiple bouts a day in amateur tournaments.) Same thing with skipping rope, speed bag, that string that you duck under, and the other modalities. I'm sure there's utility to them, but some high level pros have made it without using all of them.

> My coach had me lifting weights, but that was third priority (after boxing and running). It was just 3 days a week of bench press and squat. I think that due to the highly specialized and asymmetrical nature of boxing, GPP is even more necessary to counteract some of the imbalances that would inevitably develop.

> I think in the end the important part is this:
I do not know if this solution is optimal or not, but I least, I can easily sustain it on a daily basis and I globally perform better (both in boxing and daily life requirement such as any kind of lift).
You're probably not training to be a world champ, so you can enjoy boxing as a process rather than a race against time. Boxing by itself is fun enough and should take up enough time to keep you occupied for a while. Following the SF philosophy, you can see what works for you and slowly hack away at the non-essentials, eventually figuring out what is indeed optimal.

P.S.
Recently I learnt that the basic training of Klitschko was throwing at least 500 strikes of each type (jan, hook, etc...)
Funny, I trained a guy years back and made him drill 1'000 jabs every day. He then proceeded to knock a guy out cold, with a jab.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

So shadowboxing, bagwork, drills, and sparring provide the highest ROI
Yes, this is also what I am disposed to think. I always try to do a very complete shadow boxing, which mixes all the things I know. Most of the time, due to schedule constraints, I do only 2 or 3 rounds. In addition to the technique, it also gives me a some conditioning (both muscular and cardio vascular).

Regarding the shadowboxing, now, I always do it with resistance band. This is very convenient to avoid damaging both the technique and the joints.

Even if this is not that much, I really feel a difference during fights. This difference goes from simple footwork (just looking for the good distance) to how to properly landing the punch and getting back to a safe zone. I also guess this is quite good for the brain because if I want to do it properly, I visualize an opponent.

LSD runs I believe are mostly done out of tradition (at least for recreational competitors). I only ran intervals back then, and the common thing my opponents said was that I never stopped moving forward
My "cardio" work is really diversified.

I practice HIT here and there as a part of my "personal home routine". However, I do not practice it on a very regular basis at home. Our boxing teacher makes us work on intervals, mainly using heavy bags or mitts. Of course, there is the sparring part of the training. Due to 2-3 boxing sessions a week, this is more or less enough for me, because as you said, I do not train to be world champion.

When I do my personal home training, I usually do every other day, 20 minutes of skipping rope. Here and there I do an acceleration, but nothing fancy. Most of the time, my skipping rope training is some kind of "cleaning", nothing more. As you say, maybe there is a lot of tradition here, however, I noticed it has been working fairly well on me because my cardio remains acceptable. By acceptable, I mean it fits my goals of the recreational boxer and also general health. Comparing to other boxers, I also noticed that this simple thing teaches me how to have gas in the tank, even during 8 rounds, without a real decline of rythm.

My mace training is based more or on less on the same idea. I always try to reduce rest to the bare minimum. Maybe the combination of the boxing per se, plus the skipping rope, plus the home training are some kind of sweet spot. Plus, I walk at least 1h30 a day (going back and forth from work, carrying the food, never using the lifts, etc...)

I think that due to the highly specialized and asymmetrical nature of boxing, GPP is even more necessary to counteract some of the imbalances that would inevitably develop.
Once again, I agree. Even if I try to add here and there some specifics to improve my boxing, I always want to keep the "GPP spirit". Indeed, in any kind of occasion, I want to be able to pick heavy stuff up, potentially several times. Basically, this training gives me some kind of "brick layer" strength-endurance training.

Boxing by itself is fun enough and should take up enough time to keep you occupied for a while. Following the SF philosophy, you can see what works for you and slowly hack away at the non-essentials, eventually figuring out what is indeed optima
Oh yes ! Plus, I would even say that this is a very long process. When we are teached a technique, I always practice it very slowly, at least at the beginning. A lot of folks enjoy practicing super fast, as soon as they are shown the technique. I do not think this is a good option, because doing so, you are also memorizing an imperfect technique. Once again, shadowboxing may help.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Machete

Halfling Monk, Chaotic Neutral
Elite Certified Instructor
Regarding the shadowboxing, now, I always do it with resistance band. This is very convenient to avoid damaging both the technique and the joints.
I've never tried these actually. Bands weren't a big thing back then. My coach used to make me do a round or two with small dumbbells to get that heavy feel on the hands then drop them and immediately keep shadowboxing. The extra perceived lightness seemed to help drill the snap at the end of the punches by putting emphasis on the "double pulse," which some folks tend to miss by using weights that are too heavy, transforming the dynamic punch into a grind.
I practice HIT here and there as a part of my "personal home routine". However, I do not practice it on a very regular basis at home. Our boxing teacher makes us work on intervals, mainly using heavy bags or mitts. Of course, there is the sparring part of the training. Due to 2-3 boxing sessions a week, this is more or less enough for me, because as you said, I do not train to be world champion.
Yeah, I think the LSD stuff is mostly to balance out the training. Most of boxing training is intervals, and if one trains 5-7 days a week, more intervals probably isn't the answer. (This is probably how I burned myself out 10 years ago, doing intervals on top of intervals, and zero LSD. Because it's all about the HIIT brah. Haha)
Even if I try to add here and there some specifics to improve my boxing, I always want to keep the "GPP spirit".
Two things I would definitely add as specific training are rear delt and scapula work, and hand and wrist conditioning. It just helps with training a availability and longevity.
When we are teached a technique, I always practice it very slowly, at least at the beginning. A lot of folks enjoy practicing super fast, as soon as they are shown the technique. I do not think this is a good option, because doing so, you are also memorizing an imperfect technique. Once again, shadowboxing may help.
Yeah, that is a problem I see a lot. They either go too fast, or not fast enough, staying in that middle half-assed zone. That's when goal-setting comes into play. If they're training to exercise, I try to make the learning process a bit more entertaining. But if they're training to be fighters, they can entertain themselves when I'm off the clock; here they do what I say.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I've never tried these actually. Bands weren't a big thing back then
I use them more than before because my teacher told me that it was a good thing, in his opinion, to increase hand speed (in addition to work on technique of course), without adding mass. However, I do not use the same bands when I train strength. What I like with them is that they get harder during the most difficult part of the move. Plus they are very convenient when travelling.

I am quite tall for my weight (1,83m for 62-63kg). Then, I am neither strong nor powerful (as a consequence), if I do not train strength. I am more an endurance guy. This is why I now want to focus a little more on speed and power. Macework seems to work well for the moment, if we consider the training with an additional weight.

Yeah, I think the LSD stuff is mostly to balance out the training. Most of boxing training is intervals, and if one trains 5-7 days a week, more intervals probably isn't the answer. (This is probably how I burned myself out 10 years ago, doing intervals on top of intervals, and zero LSD. Because it's all about the HIIT brah. Haha)
The more I train, the more I lean, like you. Now, I try to do some LSD training the day after the boxing. So I do not train my strength or power. I noticed that if I do so, I have trouble to recover. Curious thing is that the energy loss is felt during the afternoon, never in the morning. Indeed, my home training and LSD is done quite early in the morning. I start training about 4:30am and 5:00am. However, the boxing training is at 8:30pm. So I work all day long in between, plus the walking, etc...

Even if it can sound as a drawback, the benefit is that it teaches me how to "re-engage", to get this kind of "train even if you are tired, because some other saw worse".

I am quite curious: could you described main line of the program you creates a while back ? (I would perfectly understand you do not want of course !)

How do you train now ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I do a lot of LSD too (including today). Maybe that's because it does positively affect our combat sport, and it's also not going to make us sore for it.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Yes most of the time, LSD does not make us sore. If I remember correctly, Harald Motz did some LSD as an aerobic recovery activity, alongside his A+A training.

I think LSD is a good thing, at least to a certain extent, because it builds some kind of strong cardio-vascular base. Doing HIT / Intervals without LSD may do little but nothing, at least on the long term. I noticed we can lose very fast the HIT gains. However, LSD gains last longer, even with a reduced amount of training.

I would not necessarily go for 5k a day or so. Nonetheless, every other day may be enough for the recreatational combat sport / MA practionner. This is at least what I see from other guys

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

the hansenator

Level 6 Valued Member
I read that LSD training increases the volume of the left ventricle in the heart allowing it to pump more blood with each beat. You don't train this effectively with higher intensity training because the heart rate is too high.

Also that hiit works for a few weeks and then the adaptations plateau.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
HIIT increases stroke volume (some) but mostly increased stroke pressure.

It also improves capillary and mitochondrial density same as LSD. That increased stroke volume is huge though.

For short high intensity activities HIIT gives a lot of benefit, it falls down when used for long duration steady state.

Personally I think you could go quite a while using HIIT and still see improvements - most studies that show no real benefit was using them with very well adapted endurance athletes.
 
Top Bottom