all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Building a base

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

John climber PT

Level 2 Valued Member
Hi everyone, been following and enjoying strongfirsts work for a while, im also a level 3 qualified trainer from the UK.

Just after some opinions here based on my official course training.

In the course it says basically that someone who hasn't trained for a while or consistently ect ect should start with atleast a year of endurance numbers on lifts before attempting pure strength routines.

I tend to promote this to clients as standard.

People, purely your thoughts on this, is it really necessary to build a base of strength this way. Personally i do feel it has it's merits.
 
Hi @John climber PT

It's hard to say without defining what you mean by "hasn't trained for a while or consistently", "endurance numbers on lifts" or "pure strength routines." We could easily be talking about different things based on our interpretation.

However I don't see any reason that someone in any state couldn't begin strength training, provided they use an appropriate load and program, and are taught how to do the loaded movements (and given appropriate regressions if they are unable to due to mobility or some other restriction).
 
@John climber PT, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

In the course it says basically that someone who hasn't trained for a while or consistently ect ect should start with atleast a year of endurance numbers on lifts before attempting pure strength routines.
There is, if you'll forgive me, a world-view in here that we don't subscribe to at StrongFirst. Specifically, we teach high tension techniques that often result not only in instant increases in strength but also make the lifting safer by spreading the load across more of the body.

When you take that approach, you will find that there is generally a "right" weight for a person, one that demands they apply tension techniques but isn't so heavy as to cause form to deteriorate. And, in that context, lifting lighter weights is actually a more advanced skill - it's learning to apply what you need for heavier weights to the lighter weights when you don't _need_ to do everything right, but you _want_ to practice the techniques that will eventually allow you to move heavy things.

-S-
 
I've seen a program over here in Aus where they are putting 80 and 90 year olds on strength programs in nursing homes without building any prior base of endurance. It's been life changing for many of those people, it greatly enhances their quality of life and even though they are though they are only lifting light weights the percentage based gains they make are really quite astounding.

Being a level 3 cert, you should be able to adjust any program to your level of fitness and begin strength training straight away. I'm guessing that with your experience you have more hands on experience than the average office worked who's sat in a chair 8 hours a day for a decade or more.

Those sort of recommendations seem to be factored around the male ego, we tend to want to do everything we see others doing straight away and that could easily lead to injuries if the program doesn't advise some type of start slow ethos.

Train smart & listen to your body, you'll be fine.
 
I think it depends on the client. If they are completely detrained or have zero history of fitness it pays to build up their familiarity to some of the basic lifting and movement mechanics using more of a strength/endurance protocol.

I'd say in most if not all cases a full year of that is way too much, a couple of months at the most aught to be sufficient. Again, depends on the client and what will achieve the best compliance effort.

I would also say there doesn't need to be a sharp transition, the higher strength work can be introduced as a shift.
 
Im guessing one could just use a sub max weight as prescribed in numerous strongfirst programs as a base to build tendon and muscle strength rather than use endurance 15 plus rep ranges to start? As an option.

The reason i asked was, as your comments have acknowledged, the type of thinking is a little different to what is prescribed by my course material and that just bugged me enough to ask the question.

I own many Strongfirst, Pavel and Dan John books and have tried several of the programs, sometimes its easy to overthink things, or miss things.
 
I'll add a bit of jargon to the conversation but I think it's pretty useful jargon.

When we design programs at StrongFirst, we assume a normal, healthy individual, someone who scores at least a two on all their FMS tests. For people who aren't up to what we consider to be a baseline normal, we have what we call regressions. One can work on the regressions to bring one up to the baseline, and then move into what we call progressions to become stronger.

I'll give a personal example. I have accomplished my 1/2 bodyweight kettlebell military press, which is 32 kg at my 150 lbs. bodyweight. But I haven't done much pressing in the last few years after developing overuse injuries in both shoulders.

Over the last few months, I've been on a program suitable for someone in my situation. My traditional regimen for shoulder health has always included the ability to finish a set of presses with a windmill, and I do my windmills the "old fashioned" way we used to do them at StrongFirst, with a large range of motion. In my case, given my relatively flexible hips and hamstrings, I like to put the palm of the non-bearing hand on the ground.

My program began with bodyweight-only windmills, and when I added presses, I used a 4 kg kettlebell. I moved up in 2 kg increments as I felt my strength and mobility improve, but I spent more than a single session each with 6, 8, and 10 kg. I spent about a week with 12 kg, and moved up to 14 kg just today. My protocol is 1 clean and 5 presses per side, and windmill from the top of the 5th press. Both sides, then repeat, so 10 presses per side per day, and pressing almost every day. The weight is light enough that I have plenty of room to focus on the things I need to make my shoulders work again - my right shoulder is plain weird from years of classical guitar playing, and I need to make an effort to get it in the right place before I press. I've got my little checklist - roll my right shoulder back, make sure I've got my weight slightly more on my right side, make sure I have a little t-spine rotation in the direction of my press before I start, and double-check the t-spine rotation again before I do my windmill.

When I first started pressing kettlebells, however, I began with a 16 kg and within a few weeks was up to a 24 kg. A 16 kg is what a normal, healthy adult male of my size ought to be able to start with, and there is no need for anything lighter - and that was my point. The right sized weight is the best teacher provided form is good. Rehab and regressions are a separate thing, and I don't think it's good to simply lump all older people together, or to use "deconditioned" as an adjective. If regressions and rehab work are needed, approach them as such, not just as doing a normal program but with very light weights. For health people, such light weights aren't necessary and can be counterproductive.

And, FWIW, I'm doing great - the right mechanics are starting to become easier as I continue to practice them, and I'm looking forward to soon, perhaps even the end of this week, pressing a 16 kg again for 5 reps x 2 sets on each side, my baseline for "normal."

Perhaps this is largely semantics, but as a trainer, I think it's an important distinction. There are no strength goals as such when performing regressions and in rehabilitation - the goal is to get back to a normal baseline, and then to think about how to become stronger.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
Assuming you have no contraindications to exercise and within normal limits movement competency, search for a certified SFG in your area who could help build your foundation with swings and get ups. Maybe meet with him/her at regular intervals for follow ups. I think this investment could really expedite your skill level safely.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom