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Kettlebell Building Leg Strength

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@Alan Mackey, I was thinking of doing the Starting Strength NLP program. It involves the squat, bench, deadlift and press, performed 3x per week.

Thinking of doing S&S in the morning and then SS in the afternoon (S&S+SS). Might do S&S 3x per week to coincide with my SS days.... or I might try to do it daily if recovery allows.

Although I do want to reach the simple standard again and go for sinister.... :rolleyes:
 
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Pavel addresses this leg-mass/squat issue in one of his books, probably the S&S one. I personally agree with him. Basically he says if you've got thick thighs you chafe when running, so this is something to consider when going after heavy squats. There is certainly enough leg development in swings and TGUs for GPP.

My own point to add is that everything is very specific. Squatting is squatting, swinging is swinging, judo is judo. I think you'd find a lot of heavy squatters humbled by trying 10X10 1 handed kettlebell swings with the 32kg bell, for instance.

But I'll also add that the heavy squat is a great move, of course. :)
 
Thinking of doing S&S in the morning and then SS in the afternoon (S&S+SS). Might do S&S 3x per week to coincide with my SS days.... or I might try to do it daily if recovery allows.

Starting Strength is done by itself, nothing else along with it (except maybe easy walks or quick HIIT conditioning sessions). You will not progress if you don't recover, and you must prioritize recovery. Recovery is when you adapt to the stress and your strength increases.
 
@Anna C, I might hold off on SS for a while (I'll just focus on reading the book for now). I really don't want to quit S&S at the moment. Do you recommend I do PTTP in order to mix in barbells or is there something else you would recommend to compliment a daily (or near daily) dose of S&S?

My bench and squat are definitely weaker than my deadlift and press.
 
This comes back full circle to another discussion some time back regarding ones definition of 'GPP'. For some swings and TGU's might be adequate... for others woefully short of the mark.
Yeah but... even if the TGUs aren't really big leg builders and are more "mobility" type things for the legs, the swings get a lot of leg involvement. If the goal is to generally strengthen the body, the legs are certainly included in S&S. It's hard to see how one could successfully argue the legs aren't getting exercised enough in S&S in a general sense. I guess semantics are always going to pop up.

I have to say though that I wonder if I ought to do more leg-focussed stuff for my judo. I just really don't feel the need for it, but I could be wrong in not feeling this need.

I'll have to look for this thread. I missed it I guess.
 
@Alan Mackey, I was thinking of doing the Starting Strength NLP program. It involves the squat, bench, deadlift and press, performed 3x per week.

Thinking of doing S&S in the morning and then SS in the afternoon (S&S+SS). Might do S&S 3x per week to coincide with my SS days.... or I might try to do it daily if recovery allows.

Although I do want to reach the simple standard again and go for sinister.... :rolleyes:

Many moons ago I followed the Starting Strength program until I hit the 500/400/300/200 goal (actually, my numbers were a bit better those days). And, while I gained a lot of strength, I also got somewhat fat along the way. But the worst thing were my cardio sucked BIG time, I was tired all the time and my performance on the mat took a tremendous dive.

I would only recommend it to those interested in doing a long stint (at least six months) of just that. No additional activities whatsoever.

If you want to keep your waist size in check and stay fresh enough to do other activities, I would choose a squat-centric PttP/Easy Strength/5x5x5 cycle.

Just my two cents...
 
@Anna C, I might hold off on SS for a while (I'll just focus on reading the book for now). I really don't want to quit S&S at the moment. Do you recommend I do PTTP in order to mix in barbells or is there something else you would recommend to compliment a daily (or near daily) dose of S&S?

I don't have any specific recommendations but it's come up many times on the forum so I'll let everyone else's recommendations stand. Personally I don't like to mix programs. If I'm on a program, I do that program only, and give it my all. I get good results that way. For S&S specifically, the recommendation in the book is "If you follow a serious strength training program, reduce the S&S frequency to twice a week." That could work. But if you're doing S&S daily, what is your reason? If it is to progress on the program, then focus on the program and look for progress.

That said, there are different kinds of programs. Dan John uses the term "bus bench" (you expect it to take you somewhere specific) and "park bench" (keeping you generally in shape - you're not intending to go somewhere with it). A person can do a good bit of exercise that falls in the category of "park bench" and get plenty of benefit from it -- i.e. skill practice, movement/mobility, endurance building. If it's low stress, it can be added in with other things. Just be aware of how stressful it is for you. "Bus bench" training is designed to STRESS your body in a productive way so that you can recover and adapt, and come back stronger (or more powerful, or whatever target quality the program is designed to build), and anything that competes for those recovery resources will potentially detract from its effects. Your body can only handle so much stress at a time. But you can do exercise that's not very stressful... if it's something you're already adapted to, or if the volume is low, or if the weight is light to moderate. For example, you can walk all you want along with just about any program and not detract from it... although if you walk for 6-8 hours in a day, that too will interfere.

It's hard to see how one could successfully argue the legs aren't getting exercised enough in S&S in a general sense. I guess semantics are always going to pop up.

"Exercising" and "building strength" are two different endeavors. You can S&S all the way to Sinister and still not have a decent barbell squat, or be able to do a pistol. (Ask me how I know this...) And yes, I do recommend building leg strength. It's very satisfying to make those biggest muscles in the body get strong. The best way to make the legs strong is to push some serious weight. Enter the barbell squat. Intelligent programming is required.
 
The best way to make the legs strong is to push some serious weight. Enter the barbell squat. Intelligent programming is required.


I'll add to this, loading the legs through the spine with heavy weight produces a strong anabolic trigger for the entire body, especially the first time you've done so, or if coming off a long stretch without.

You can get pretty strong in the legs without doing this, but it isn't the same.
 
If you want to combine strength work with S&S you can try Wendler's 5/3/1. You can do S&S as your assistance work for the day.

5/3/1 is a really nice workout program. I used ot for about 1 year when it first came out, maybe 10 years ago now. It is a great recommendation.

I'm usually careful not to over-promote non-Strongfirst programs on this forum, since Strongfirst provides this wonderful Forum free of charge, and has excellent barbell program options. And Strongfirst does offer their barbell program, Reload, which would work great here. Also, there are at least 7 years worth of free barbell programs in the Articles on the main forum.

But now I'll do what I said I usually dont feel comfortable doing... I've been following the 10/20/Life program for 3+ years now. This program is centered around the 3 powerlifts (or you could replace them with 3 other complex barbell lifts). Like 5/3/1, It would also allow S&S integration into a barbell program (I have done this myself). I use this program because it works (my strength has improved dramatically in the last 3 years), it is not too demanding on me, it is customizable, and the author makes himself available for personal assistance.

Regards,

Eric

Regards,

Eric
 
@Mark Limbaga, I just want my legs to be in balance to the rest of my body. In other words, if I can bench 230lbs, deadlift 400lbs and press a 40kg, how much should I be able to squat (approximately)?

As of now, I can bench more than I can squat. Doesn’t seem correct to me...
 
@Mark Limbaga, I just want my legs to be in balance to the rest of my body. In other words, if I can deadlift +400lbs and press a 40kg, how much should I squat (approximately)?

As of now, I can bench more than I can squat. Doesn’t seem correct to me...

The most common rule is:

Deadlift: 500 lbs.
Back squat: 400 lbs.
Bench press: 300 lbs.
Overhead press: 200 lbs.
 
Back squat: 400 lbs.
I'm nowhere near that.

The thing is that besides the deadlift, I have not done any other barbell training in over a year. So I'm assuming that the TGUs, ocassional kb presses and push-ups have kept my press and bench fairly strong.

I think it's clear that I would have to do barbell back squats to balance my strength.
 
I have to say though that I wonder if I ought to do more leg-focussed stuff for my judo. I just really don't feel the need for it, but I could be wrong in not feeling this need.

I will once again sound like Mark Rippetoe proving that I do agree with him on some issues. He always says strength is a "general adaptation." I want to qualify that a bit and phrase it this way: For the vast majority of sports, any strength built in the gym is going to be general. For the vast majority of sports, trying to "mimic" sports movements using weights or heavier-than-normal implements (think a tennis players practicing with a heavy racket) is going to be dangerous/injury producing, counterproductive, or just plain stupid. For the vast majority of sports, you will not gain much strength or fitness just practicing the sport, at least not past the beginner stage. So, the training model for the vast majority of sports (notice how I keep repeating this?) is going to be build general strength in the weightroom and then practice your sport, and hopefully the strength you've gained will transfer over to your sporting event. Even Pavel said something similar in Enter the Kettlebell so this is not controversial.

That's not to say that there are no "sports specific" exercises. However, these have been proven to be safe and effective (e.g., beyond a certain weight, using heavier-than-normal implements is counterproductive because your body is forced to use a different motor pattern to compensate for the increased weight, and this will not carryover to the normal-weighted implement). A good example of a "sports specific" exercise is cyclists who ride uphill pushing a big gear. This will only help a cyclist - I doubt any competent strength coach would have NFL lineman riding bikes up hills in a big gear. So "sports specific" exercise is only good for the sport and nothing else, and usually best done after some general strength has been built. My guess is certain drills done in judo can build up "sports specific" strength, and certainly regular sparring sessions can build up "sports specific" conditioning.


So, instead of asking "Do I really need strong legs for my sport," ask "Do I need to be strong for my sport?" If so, then go to the weightroom and work on getting stronger in the squat, press, deadlift and bench press. Focus on building general strength and quit worrying about whether the exercises "transfer" to your sport. Because guess what - no exercise done in the weightroom is ever going to be a movement you do on the field of play, unless your field of play is powerlifting or Olympic weightlifting.
 
@Mark Limbaga, I just want my legs to be in balance to the rest of my body. In other words, if I can bench 230lbs, deadlift 400lbs and press a 40kg, how much should I be able to squat (approximately)?

As of now, I can bench more than I can squat. Doesn’t seem correct to me...

Start where you are, your squat pattern will get stronger eventually
 
I will once again sound like Mark Rippetoe proving that I do agree with him on some issues. He always says strength is a "general adaptation." I want to qualify that a bit and phrase it this way: For the vast majority of sports, any strength built in the gym is going to be general. For the vast majority of sports, trying to "mimic" sports movements using weights or heavier-than-normal implements (think a tennis players practicing with a heavy racket) is going to be dangerous/injury producing, counterproductive, or just plain stupid. For the vast majority of sports, you will not gain much strength or fitness just practicing the sport, at least not past the beginner stage. So, the training model for the vast majority of sports (notice how I keep repeating this?) is going to be build general strength in the weightroom and then practice your sport, and hopefully the strength you've gained will transfer over to your sporting event. Even Pavel said something similar in Enter the Kettlebell so this is not controversial.

That's not to say that there are no "sports specific" exercises. However, these have been proven to be safe and effective (e.g., beyond a certain weight, using heavier-than-normal implements is counterproductive because your body is forced to use a different motor pattern to compensate for the increased weight, and this will not carryover to the normal-weighted implement). A good example of a "sports specific" exercise is cyclists who ride uphill pushing a big gear. This will only help a cyclist - I doubt any competent strength coach would have NFL lineman riding bikes up hills in a big gear. So "sports specific" exercise is only good for the sport and nothing else, and usually best done after some general strength has been built. My guess is certain drills done in judo can build up "sports specific" strength, and certainly regular sparring sessions can build up "sports specific" conditioning.


So, instead of asking "Do I really need strong legs for my sport," ask "Do I need to be strong for my sport?" If so, then go to the weightroom and work on getting stronger in the squat, press, deadlift and bench press. Focus on building general strength and quit worrying about whether the exercises "transfer" to your sport. Because guess what - no exercise done in the weightroom is ever going to be a movement you do on the field of play, unless your field of play is powerlifting or Olympic weightlifting.

You are totally right.


Yes, weights are weights, kettlebells are kettlebells, bodyweight training is bodyweight training and judo is judo. I get strong because I want to get strong, and I do judo to get better at judo and stronger at judo-strength, which is also part of becoming "generally strong": working out at home and judo both go towards "getting stronger" in a holistic sense, of course. I figure (along with SF principles, which is why I lurk here a lot, hehehe) that I can "get stronger"/"get/stay strong" at home with a few kettlebells and some bodyweight work, but the goals here for me are mainly to get stronger at their own thing (i.e. to progress at S&S and NW) for their own reasons, although of course one of those reasons is to get and stay "generally strong", and is it better to be generally stronger or generally weaker if one is a judo wrestler? Generally stronger of course! Haha! Still in my experience it's the mobile, technical, aggressive and long-winded guys who are the scariest opponents regardless of their size, since judo is very much based on leverage when you get past a certain level of skill. It's funny though that maybe all of my training mates go to the gym and train basically the way you said on those four main moves (some have their own expensive barbell cages etc too and can do it at home.)

I suppose the question for me relative to what they are doing is "is my at home stuff with S&S etc good enough"? Seems to be in terms of being a decent member of the club/team, but you are certainly right that doing the heavy lifting would be good for me. That would be another interesting discussion re: barbell or kettlebell for judo, but it's kind of moot since it's well proven that kettlebells are quite good for any sport and I'm not at the moment involved in high level competitions (several of my team mates and coaches are though!)... and I've got a deadlifting station in my basement at least. :)
 
Doing squats is good thing to do, but basically you could do only goblet squats to fill the plank. Most of us don't need to squat heavy...
And you could also do one legged variations/lunges with doubles.

Work up to 20 reps with double 32kg clean and jerk and work up to couple snatches with the beast.. You need zero squatting for that and you have damn strong legs, back, core, grip and shoulders. :)
 
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