Building mitochondria

305pelusa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Common sense applied to biology is far more enlightening than arguing about scientific papers. Trust me when I say that every author has some degree of "faith" written into the paper.
Pavel is explaining the "science behind the hood" of S&S. He's saying it's doing it by a very specific mechanism (mitochondria in fast fibers). So as soon as one poster asks "wait, does that actually happen?" you can't just say "emh just forget about studies... common sense and practice is all that matters".

I have zero problems with being practical. I agree that if you go from 1 snatch to 100 snatches in a day, you're generally more conditioned by a variety of different ways. It's just bothersome because every conditioning program ever does that. By this logic, ROP builds mitochondria. Metcons build mitochondria. I mean, if that's the case, I'm fine with that. I just don't see the need to market S&S as this special A+A revolutionary protocol. It's just basic conditioning.

What bothers me is that, perhaps in an attempt to market it, there's misinformation. It creates OP's asking how to put mitochondria in their fast twitch instead of their slow twitch. I recently told a sports coach about this A+A protocol people are using to put mitochondria in their fast twitch fibers, and he just about spit his coffee on my face out of laughter. "Where did you hear stuff like that, a Crossfit forum?".

I guess it's easy to just call it quits and says "it works so why care how?". But some of us actually care how, and want to learn. Rant over I guess.
Also, you can use the same argument "in the age of internet, smartphones etc. where everyone can find almost any info he/she wants within a matter of seconds" for blaming
anyone who does NOT know Selouyanov because some of his articles are online and no one prevents you from reading them.
I'm well aware of his stuff online. I just can't read it. That's what I meant.

Pavel makes Russian references all the time (like Sheiko's routines), but I quite simply can't read them (except the 28-32 that were translated). Like Mark Rippetoe mentions, (I'm paraphrasing), "Russian research is loosely and sloppily annotated and rarely lends itself to correct independent verification of results", which is an absolute key thing to the scientific method. Part of that is that it's in Russian and translations are either nonexistent, or will carry the bias/conclusions that the translator himself wants to make his point.
 

305pelusa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Anyone training today? Haha....

Is it not a case of insulin, schminsulin or mitochondria, schmytichondria?
All parts of an integrated system that work together. Do the thing, adapt. Do the thing better and, with S&S, do other things better too hopefully being an all round hybrid efficient machine.

Well I've trained today anyway......
Yeah that's fair. Maybe I have to lighten up.

Haven't trained yet but will. Planche training has been pretty harsh, anyone know how to build more creatine onto my scapulae in order to help with the protraction?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ali

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Is it not a case of insulin, schminsulin or mitochondria, schmytichondria?
If You Like to Argue

It is very tempting for a certain type of a person to nitpick that a given regimen does not give enough attention to the lactate threshold, VO2 max, or some other valid marker of endurance. I will send him to
Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb:

We are built to be dupes for theories. But theories come and go; experience stays. Explanations change all the time, and have changed all the time in history (because of casual opacity, invisibility of causes) with people involved in the incremental development of ideas thinking they always had a definite theory; experience remains constant.
....
Kettlebell
Simple & Sinister
page 71
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Pavel is explaining the "science behind the hood" of S&S. He's saying it's doing it by a very specific mechanism (mitochondria in fast fibers). So as soon as one poster asks "wait, does that actually happen?" you can't just say "emh just forget about studies... common sense and practice is all that matters".
That's ok. Everyone is trying to explain the science behind the observations. Pavel has his beliefs based on what he reads, and so do you. You two simply don't agree.

It's just bothersome because every conditioning program ever does that.
You've never been on a conditioning program that eventually ran you into the ground? I think you've stated as much.

What bothers me is that, perhaps in an attempt to market it, there's misinformation.
I genuinely hate this too. I can assure you that this is not the case here.

It creates OP's asking how to put mitochondria in their fast twitch instead of their slow twitch.
I think it's great that they're asking these questions. There is enough science to suggest that this is at least possible.

I recently told a sports coach about this A+A protocol people are using to put mitochondria in their fast twitch fibers, and he just about spit his coffee on my face out of laughter. "Where did you hear stuff like that, a Crossfit forum?".
You know, Glassman was/is a coach too... I can care less what "authority" has laughed at what.

But some of us actually care how, and want to learn.
Learning is different from protecting your paradigm. You're not convinced by any of the studies submitted... ok. There are plenty more. It is a "thing": Proteins tend to dissolve in the presence of acid. Again, I make no argument, and, it doesn't change the observations.

"Russian research is loosely and sloppily annotated and rarely lends itself to correct independent verification of results", which is an absolute key thing to the scientific method.
Do you seriously think American science is done any more "scientifically"? Everyone has an agenda; everyone has capitalist intentions. Exercise science is anything but... good luck with your "learning".

I really didn't want to get into a back and forth, but at some point, you're going to have to have some faith. Your n=1 is not the end all be all of this discussion, but you submit little else. Again, I am not trying to argue; just enlighten.
 

305pelusa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Learning is different from protecting your paradigm. You're not convinced by any of the studies submitted... ok. There are plenty more. It is a "thing": Proteins tend to dissolve in the presence of acid. Again, I make no argument, and, it doesn't change the observations.
Al, honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. What studies? The ones in Russian that I can't read? No, it doesn't convince me. I haven't read them though, that's why.

I did read the one you quoted when you said "It is not clear if power work (re: Simple & Sinister) alone provides physiological changes in mitochondria that contribute to the conditioning increases.". And I agree with your logic. To me, it isn't clear that it does it either. I'm confused Al. Have you recently changed your mind?

It's fine if you have. I'm just trying to figure out the answer. I'm not protecting any paradigm, I have no idea what makes you think that. I don't have anything to gain from any of this either; I'm an Electrical Engineer anyways.
 
Last edited:

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Al, honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. What studies? The ones in Russian that I can't read? No, it doesn't convince me. I haven't read them though, that's why.
I've said that I wasn't here to argue, and I have giving up on convincing folks a long time ago. I simply wanted to make a few points because I was tagged into this discussion.

"It is not clear if power work (re: Simple & Sinister) alone provides physiological changes in mitochondria that contribute to the conditioning increases.". And I agree with your logic. To me, it isn't clear that it does it either. I'm confused Al. Have you recently changed your mind?
What is confusing? It is not absolutely clear, but probable and suggested. You know, we can't see the micro universe with the naked eye; worse yet, with biological studies, the researchers use a surrogate or marker to see what they're looking for. Compound these problems with the fact that research intends to isolate a variable, observe it, then claim it acts in the same way when reintroduced into the system. I am not in favor of linear thinking for systemic understanding.

I'm just trying to figure out the answer.
The answer is that we don't know with any certainty. There are papers that suggest support of both sides of this argument.

I apologize for not having more information.
 

ajaan

Double-Digit Post Count
@305pelusa

This is very much n+1 and anecdotal, but nevertheless of importance for me. It may or may not contribute to the discussion.

I have a mitochondrial disease. I was deteriorating with training. I was getting more fatigued. I tried a lot of protocols inside and outside of SFG.

@aciampa and @Anna C patiently and kindly explained A+A to me.

@aciampa helped me a great deal.

On Al's advice, I adopted A+A daily 1H swings plus daily walks (45 minutes), breathing exercises, and very easy endurance on either a treadmill or a X Trainer (like 60-68% of HRmax or we could say Maffetone minus 10 bpm for illness).

It has been transformative and life changing. I've never felt better from exercise. Even OTM swings are too much normally.

I read Al Ciampa's posts about avoiding 'being bathed in acid' as acid destroys the mitochondria. I don't know the science, yet my n+1 experience confirms it. If I experience lactate or go above 5 reps (for strength training) then the fatigue will last for days.

HIIT is my deadly enemy. As is pushing on for fasting running times at say a constant 85% HRmax for 5KM.

Is there science to back this up? I can't answer that. But I can say that I've come across the work of Dr Charles Lapp of John Hopkins Medical School, who is a specialist in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Mitochondria, and Exercise. He also notes the danger of mitochondria being 'bathed in acid' during exercise.

The theory (to paraphrase):

This is a result of the muscle cells trying to produce ATP without enough oxygen. There is a build up of ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species) and depletion of ATP. This causes fatigue, muscle damage, and oxidative stress. For people with existing mitochondrial or autoimmune diseases this can be devastating. In extreme cases, due to this damage, even rolling over in bed becomes exhaustive. In effect, the exercise is making things worse.

Dr Lapp also notes that people with mitochondrial disorders do not build muscle strength following exercise in the same way that a healthy person does. They are not sure why this is the case.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
There are heaps of good reading on this topic, with very little in the way of defined threshold for positive/negative effects of ROS, especially exercise induced.

When it comes to metabolic issues, it makes sense that any additional load is going to be poorly tolerated as the baseline load might already be tough to manage (if I'm reading the literature with OK understanding).


https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jst/2012/982794/

....in combination with other actors such as growth factors and chemokines, ROS participate in a cascade of events leading to muscle regeneration and repair; on the contrary, the local persistence of ROS sustained by infiltrated neutrophils may cause further injury by oxidatively damaging differentiating myoblasts and myotubes thus delaying the restitutio ad integrum. Similarly, ROS generated during exercise promote mitochondriogenesis ...
 

ajaan

Double-Digit Post Count
@North Coast Miller Thank you. The article is useful and beneficial.

it makes sense that any additional load is going to be poorly tolerated as the baseline load might already be tough to manage
This is a good point. However, a word of warning -- again anecdotal. I *used* to be a D1 level athlete. I *used* to be able to go hard and long. Therefore, I do wonder about people who are benefitting in the here and now from hard or intense routines, because their 'baseline' is currently good, whether these routines will eventually bite them. I know one SFG instructor and author who has had to take a year off from training, focussing instead on Original Strength type work, because he 'fried his CNS'. While going hard and intense he built up an impressive physique and become very strong. He felt great. He didn't have an illness. But eventually it bit him. And bit him hard.

Just to add. There is doctor in the UK called Dr Sarah Myhill. Her website is www.drmyhill.co.uk

It well worth a read. She also specialises in the mitochondria. She uses dietary and supplementary interventions, as well as pharmaceutical interventions where needed. She notes that a high proportion of her 'mitochondria' patients used to be athletes or competitive sports people, indicting that somewhere along the line something changed (e.g. their baseline) or perhaps the extreme activity, done wrong, caused the problem. Again, a warning for those going hard and intense all the time.
 
Last edited:

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
@North Coast Miller Thank you. The article is useful and beneficial.


...She notes that a high proportion of her 'mitochondria' patients used to be athletes or competitive sports people, indicting that somewhere along the line something changed (e.g. their baseline) or perhaps the extreme activity, done wrong, caused the problem. Again, a warning for those going hard and intense all the time.
Excellent response!

I have to wonder if the fact they were athletes revealed the issue, whereas detrained or lifelong sedentary folk might putter along with subclinical metabolic issues that never really go acute and are therefore never diagnosed.

In my own life and training regimen I periodize. I find I am as likely to suffer joint pain and CNS burnout from heavy weight/low rep/increased rest as I am from higher reps/high intensity/decreased rest. It is no coincidence most programs are 4-6 weeks and that is about how long I like to run a strategy without some sort of change. Rest and variety work well for me, at whatever intensity.

Another issue the article I linked brings up - at least some anti-oxidative capability seems to be genetic...
 

ajaan

Double-Digit Post Count
I have to wonder if the fact they were athletes revealed the issue, whereas detrained or lifelong sedentary folk might putter along with subclinical metabolic issues that never really go acute and are therefore never diagnosed.
It crossed my mind: rather like chicken or egg.

Another issue the article I linked brings up - at least some anti-oxidative capability seems to be genetic...
This is true. I work part-time for a genetic testing company: SNPs in the SOD2 and GTSP1 gene, as well as CNVs in the GSTT1 and GSTM1 genes (among others) all influence ability to recover, put up with oxidative stress, and intensity. This is seen clearly with our clinicians, who just shake their head when some genotypes are urged by personal trainers to 'push though', even though they feel lousy doing so. Interestingly, most SFG programs would seem to suit most genotypes, unless there is an underlying health condition too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ali

ajaan

Double-Digit Post Count
@ajaan, it's been a while since we touched base; I'm glad to hear that you're coming along well!
I've benefitted a lot from your help. And also told many people of your insights. I was a little shy to contact you further. I hope you write the book, or at least a few more articles or programs. I think you're onto something big.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Interestingly, most SFG programs would seem to suit most genotypes, unless there is an underlying health condition too
There is a 'for most people, most of the time' quality. A utilitarian greatest good for the greatest number that is only really undertaken by a small amount of people, sadly.
Thanks for sharing your personal experience and knowledge. Congrats on your progress too.
 

Matts

More than 300 posts
@ajaan Great story/results...keep fighting the fight. I could see this issue affecting competitive athletes or those who need physical resources for survival much more than bodybuilder types or exercise junkies.

ps- that Dr.'s wwwsite is good
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom