Burning fat vs. burning sugar

Discussion in 'Other' started by banzaiengr, Nov 28, 2016.

  1. Miguel

    Miguel Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @banzaiengr ,

    Mr Carl, I would like to say that the A+A+LSD methodology has FOR ME (maybe some others..)
    -decreased body fat
    -increased muscle mass (scale hasn't moved so here I have to assume)
    -reduced stress
    -improved health (avoidance of illness and better sleep)
    -improved a wide variety of physical aspects from running to rucking to snatching

    You know I'm not skin and bones, sir. And you know what I do for a living. I'm not saying drop the bells and Forest Gump your way to elite endurance.

    Think of it like this; remember 201/202? Remember how you felt? Add in some nice and easy LSD running (or other event) and that feeling gets better. As stated, FOR ME.
     
  2. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count


    Well, thank you Miguel. I know those of you who have continued the lumberjack sessions are happy with the results. I was just throwing out some stuff for discussion. I should actually know better and quit using the "I'm an a#$%*@#^" font. Anyway, we'll see what happens with the foot in a few months. Miguel, you and your family have a great holiday season!
     
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  3. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    I like discussion as much as the next forum member ;), Carl, I just didn't understand the initial premise of "long slow duration (LSD) exercise has long been believed to lower testosterone and GH levels and in turn causing rising cortisol levels which causes the body to lean toward sugar burning rather than fat burning" and everything seemed to stem from that.

    Personally I'm not all that convinced on the diet inducing fat-burning vs. running off glucose... I feel like I can nudge things in one direction or the other, but has never seemed to make a huge difference for me either way. I have done the 2-week MAF reset diet.

    I feel like this is what I'm doing now, similar to Miguel, doing A+A+LSD. Weight training with kettlebell repeats of swings, snatches, push presses, etc. Interval style training with varying schemes of repeats and recovery (occasionally pushing glycolytic). Aerobic training to increase endurance = LSD, in my case I'm using bicycling. Well-rounded, all the benefits, no overtraining. I can agree with all the benefits that Miguel states above.
     
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  4. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Results are "statistics". Each one is different and has one's own reaction for a considered program.

    What I know (noticed from my trainings): If I do aerobic oriented training, I do not lose weight (or almost not). If I do anaerobic, I do lose in some trainings.

    Exception: 10k swings challenge...I lost weight.

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
  5. Pavel Macek

    Pavel Macek More than 2500 posts Master Instructor

    My 2 cents (and the way I do it): eat fat > burn fat.
     
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  6. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Yes indeed, this is the best way. However, it is "true" only when you eat low amount of sugar. This is called "ketonic diet" (from researches)

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
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  7. ClaudeR

    ClaudeR Triple-Digit Post Count

    that's the rub... it hasn't, and it doesn't!
    What does exactly these things is people's interpretation of what LSD is, not what it actually should be. Most, if not controlled and taught better, will run at to high intensity (to get that burn) for aerobic base building, and too low for increasing peak performance (what intervals should be, used very sparingly), so they get stuck in a medium workout that is entirely glycolitic, too fast for the expected result, uses up all the wrong energy sources, day in and out, with exactly the results you describe (burnout)

    just like "squats don't hurt you knees, what you do hurts your knees", "LSD doesn't burn you out, what you do burns you out"

    Maffetone method is doing the opposite, it lowers the intensity to levels that do NOT do any of the mentioned harm, and that is what LSD is about

    actually go and try it... run 5k or so at an effort that feels like you think is LSD, track your HR (but don't look at it during running), look at peaks and avg afterwards.
    Now a few days after, take 180-age, set your running watch to beep at 1 below that limit, and run the same 5k (same route, same time of day etc) again. See how often it beeps, and how slow you have to go.
    Compare the averages for HR, and most importantly how you feel after the first, and the second

    That should explain the Maffetone method and LSD pretty well, and kind of show why your premise is wrong (and thus the subsequent points are questionable)
     
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  8. berny

    berny Double-Digit Post Count

    A lot of the best powerlifters are chubby/fat. And they probably need to be in order to lift the maximum amount of weight. But doing the 3 powerlifts doesn't make you fat. The same thing goes for running. There is a big difference between running 3-5k 2-3 times a week to increase your aerobic base and the training of an endurance athlete who needs his weekly 80+ km to keep his base.
     
  9. ClaudeR

    ClaudeR Triple-Digit Post Count

    your point about running is kind of not the same as your point about the weightlifting, although I strongly agree about what you are saying.

    Most endurance athletes CHOOSE the emaciated look. The longer you have to go the more your weight makes a difference, hence any unused muscle is done away with.
    It's not that endurance exercise (properly done mind you, not mindless too fast distances) reduces muscle mass itself, it's that less weight helps with being successful, hence athletes do away with any kind of mass they can. Same as your powerlifters have an advantage in higher weight classes to be heavier, so they choose to be. It's not the sport that does it, it's the athlete's choice of goals and the willingness to compromise other areas.

    LSD won't waste away any more muscle than sprinting will make you a bodybuilder, it's what choices you make to reach certain goals that make you emaciated or a bodybuilder.
     
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  10. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Since many seem to question my point that aerobic exercise lowers testosterone levels and thus a lowering of GH levels and a rise in cortisol levels I wanted to find something as an easy reference. This seemed to be the easiest that I could scan and place here.

    Ref. Dubey, Raghvendra "Sex Hormones" 2012 ISBN
    978-953-307-856-4 Chapter 13

    4.2 Changes in circulating testosterone in response to aerobic training

    With regards to aerobic training, studies have demonstrated that endurance athletes have lower testosterone levels when compared to sedentary individuals (Strüder et al., 1998; Maïmoun et al., 2003). However, Strüder et al. (1998) showed that although testosterone levels were indeed lower in elderly male runners compared to age-matched sedentary subjects, the same was not true for previously sedentary subjects who performed aerobic training for 20 weeks 3 times per week with an intensity of 50 to 65% of aerobic power. A previous study conducted in our laboratory (Cadore et al., 2010) demonstrated a significant reduction in free testosterone in elderly men following 12 weeks of aerobic training on a cycle ergometer 3 times per week with intensity varying between 55 and 85% of aerobic power (9.7 ± 2.8 vs. 7.9 ± 3.0 pg/mL, P < 0.01). Possible discrepancies between the results of different studies may reflect the different intensities and volumes used, given that the intensity used by Strüder et al. (1999), for instance, was lower than the intensity used in our study (Cadore et al., 2010). However, in animal models, Hu et al. (1999) observed a significant reduction in testosterone levels in rats submitted to continuous swimming for 3 weeks. Levels were restored to normal following 6 weeks of training, suggesting an adjustment to training on LH secretion in the endocrine system that was associated with negative feedback. Even though testosterone reduction during aerobic training has not been clearly demonstrated, it is possible that a certain amount of time is necessary for the endocrine system to adapt to the volume and intensity of training when these factors exceed a certain stimulus threshold (Calbet et al., 1993; Kraemer & Ratamess, 2005; Maïmoun et al., 2003).

    Though high-volume physical training may result in the suppression of testosterone via direct inhibition due to the effect of cortisol on the testes (Brownlee et al., 2005), this does not completely explain the occurrence of testosterone reduction with aerobic training, given that increases in basal cortisol levels and the consequent testicular suppression are most commonly related to overtraining. In fact, testosterone levels have been shown to be reduced in endurance athletes with no alterations in cortisol levels (Maïmoun et al., 2003) as well as in non-athletes subjected to aerobic training (Cadore et al. 2010). Furthermore, other mechanisms, such as hypervolemia, increased utilisation of the hormone by muscle tissue and increased hepatic degradation of the hormone, may be responsible for the decrease in testosterone levels that result from endurance training (Izquierdo et al., 2004).

    I placed the bold for easey reference to what I believe to be commonly thought. Again, this is not as though I'm saying this is right and this is wrong. I only brought this up as a question and wanted some knowledgable feedback.

    I am surprised that so many disbelieved that it has been thought that aerobic exercise lowers testosterone and GH levels. It was also my understanding that when these levels drop, cortisol levels rise. I may be mistaken on this as I may be also mistake by taking that aerobic exercise lowers these levels. LSD is aerobics exercise therefore also lowers these levels. I'm not sure and was asking the question. Thank you
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  11. Matts

    Matts More than 300 posts

    Academic studies are often done to get grants and publicity, and to survive and get tenure in a "publish or perish" academic world. They may or may not have any valid information in them. I'm skeptical about these statements because they seem to be worded in a wish-washy way, the two statements in bold (all I read) seem to contradict each other (cites same studies for opposite premises), and it goes directly against personal experience. Over the years, I've got more good information about health and strength from old-timers in the gym and on the track than anywhere else (including doctors, except one in the gym once). Just my $.02...not based on any study or anything...I'd say get out on the road and find out how it affects you.

    It's called a "power belly"
     
  12. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    You mean like the same old timers that also believed aerobics lowered T levels? : )
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  13. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I notice my sex drive drop with higher amounts of running and increase with heavier weight training. When I go through barbell phases, I just tell my wife to wear something sexy and standby.

    I thought I read something about the release of lactic acid stimulating GH and testosterone. I also wonder if it has something to do with time under tension stress and cortisol production. LSD has a lot of time under tension at a low intensity.
     
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  14. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    It is my understanding that when T & GH levels go down cortisol goes up, and vice versa. And when cortisol goes up you body wants to burn sugar rather than fat. Therefore the question I have. Maybe like Matts stated, use myself as the test subject and see. But I usually get results out of any exercise, for about six weeks.
     
  15. Matts

    Matts More than 300 posts

    Old timers I knew never mentioned T levels or any other hormones, for that matter...haha. They only kept track of performance and strength...what worked, and what didn't. Good things to focus on.
     
  16. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Two thoughts here, one is that many people (even doctors) fail to realize that the blood level of a hormone, to some degree, indicates the amount that's NOT being used. The article points this out ("increased utilisation of the hormone by muscle tissue and increased hepatic degradation of the hormone, may be responsible for the decrease"). So a higher level may indicate poor utilization, a lower level indicate good utilization.

    The other thought is that when exercise works similarly for both men and women, I would hesitate to base any conclusions on just testosterone.

    Hormones are a fascinating field to study, but with lots of false turns and blind corners along the way...
     
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  17. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    The one's I knew and know didn't really put it in that context. It was more like, "why ya doing that running kid"? "Don't you know that kills gains and lowers your testosterone levels". Peary Radar when he lifted was about gaining weight so it wouldn't come up with him. Last time I spoke with Warren Tetting or most likely anytime I've spoke with Mr. Tetting aerobics do not come up.

    But I am interested in this puzzle I have. You can eat to teach your body to burn fat rather than sugar. Dr. Maffetone focuses as Mr. Ciampa wrote on a low carb high protein/fat diet. But for exercise, it's long slow duration running at about 75 to 80% of your max, if I recall correctly. But "if" long slow duration aerobics cause a lowering in testosterone & GH levels, and if that dip causes a rise in cortisol which causes the body to burn sugar rather than fat, is long slow duration aerobics defeat the purpose of the low carb diet?

    Having said that, Mr. Ciampa pretty much said that's all B.S. That's good enough for me so I will just carry on once I'm ready for that sort of training.

    I just like coming up with these questions because I know it aggravates the hell out of Al and causes his cortisol level to go up. Then his body starts burning sugar. : )
     
  18. banzaiengr

    banzaiengr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Now there we go. Thanks Anna, that is a brilliant observation that was completely missed by my pea brain.
     
  19. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Just my experience so far:

    I am seriously into endurance training since mid August. With seriously I mean, to build an aerobic base, Maffetone talks frequently about.

    To build an aerobic base, I have to get in tune to myself, to get to know, where I have to go to with my breathing and breath rate, cadence of strides while running or strokes when rowing, all around relaxed feeling while moving which result in a frame of heart rate that yields benefits that seem not to be attainable otherwise.

    I remember @aciampa said somewhere the magic of the Maffetone formula lies in the adjustment. I totally agree with it.


    In this four months I lost 10kg/22pounds of bodyweight, lots of fat around the waist. I move better and regained lots of mobility/flexibility. Good aerobic training seems to make me more modest.
     
  20. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides StrongFirst Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Instructor

    Carl, I think you're missing the big point here: there's training aerobically and then there's training how we here advocate doing it, and those are two different things. The fact that the study showed lower T levels for what it calls aerobic athletes doesn't apply to most people who would describe their own training as having an aerobic component on this forum, so the comparison isn't meaningful - or perhaps it's more accurate to say it's not likely that it's meaningful, since we don't really know what they did or didn't do.

    -S-
     
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