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Barbell butt wink during squat

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Confessions of a former butt winker.......clearly no idea if this applies to all but for me it was a need to go deep in the squat to seek baby like mobility when as stiff as old board. An interview with a comedian yesterday when he was a goalkeeper for a soccer aid charity match. The 45 year old, playing at Wembley stadium, faced an oncoming pro premier league striker. In his mind he leapt like a salmon across the goal but when watching the tv replay he looked like a pensioner falling over waiting for a bus! We all have degrees of distorted body awareness.....what we think we are doing isn't actually what we are doing. Get some eyes on you.
 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JmCL8RdT3LvkNxKf1


Hi guys,

I would like to rebound on the issue of buttwinks, as I'm having some pain in my lower back since 2-3 months now after having done barbell back squats for about a year. Pain as in when bending down, getting out of a car, trying to deadlift (medium-intensity pain in a "belt" across the low back or sharp pain on the left side of the low back in some cases)

I'm all new to the movement, having mainly done KB training since before. Basically,I have realised that as soon as I start getting close to parallel my lower back starts rounding off, and the problem does not go away even with a really much wider stance (almost sumo), 45° toes pointed outwards, etc. Unfortunately, I have been doing these squats with bad form for a good 9 months or so, sometimes going heavier than I should have done given the buttwink.

I have been doing hip mobility stretches daily for a good 7-8 months (prying, hamstrings stretches among other things) and have no problems touching my toes with straight legs. I have not done any barbell squats for a month now to let the low back heal, I'm working split squats with db kb instead, goblet squats, leg presses and so forth, all just not to irritate the low back.

Low-back X-ray shows no signs of injury, but I have an MRI scan on the 19th of December to determine if any disc problems are there.

If you could please have a look at these videos, loaded and unloaded, with or without belt and let me know what you think?
Thanks guys :)
 
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Hi @Nils BA Sfg1

I've certainly seen worse, but I agree it could be better. Here are my suggestions:
  1. A LOT more tension before the descent and during the squat in the lats and abs. Lats: Actively pull the bar into your back and point your elbows down more. If someone were to chop their hand into your lats, they should be rock-hard. Likewise for the abs, brace HARD. Be ready for a punch in the stomach. Hold that tension before and during, especially at the bottom of the squat. I think that would fix what little butt wink you have.
  2. Actively pull down with the hip flexors as described by @Harald Motz here
  3. Push the side pockets out as you descend. This term is slightly better than push the knees out, and was used at SFL. Seems to work well for making room for the pelvis and facilitating good movement.
  4. Practice paused squats. Descend, STAY TIGHT, pause 1-3 seconds, ascend.
  5. Try coming down to slightly less depth. Looks like you are well below parallel, so it's OK to stop at less than your maximum depth. Maintain tension, then come back up.
The squats will feel harder doing them this way, but that's a good thing. For training, it's not about moving the maximum weight, it's about using tension and good movement to move the weight. That will make you stronger to progress safely.

For the bodyweight squat in the third video, change that to a goblet squat using a kettlebell for your counterweight so you can keep the torso more vertical, sink down as far as you can (maintaining a little tension but not nearly as much as during the back squat), pry the hips open etc. as described by Harry here, and breathe...
 
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Wow, thank you Anna and Steve for your help! I will certainly keep working on this and let you know how I'm progressing. Something tells me this is a work of several years :)
Have a great weekend and thanks a lot again!
 
Looks good to me! Nice form on the goblet squat. Should be able to bring that to the barbell, too... Let us know how that goes.
 
@Nils BA Sfg1, you are tighter but your hip mobility doesn't look improved. That would also be a good thing to work on.

Prying goblet squats, whatever weight lets you sink into your deepest position without worry about the weight being heavy for you, IOW, whatever weight functions best as a counter-balance for you. Please take video from 45 degrees to the front, and post again.

-S-
 
Hi Steve and Anna,

just got the MRI results, turns out I have two lightly "spread out" discs between L3-L4 and L4-L5 and this together with a slight hernia backwards between L3-L4 (touching on nerve roots) + a naturally narrow lumbar spinal canal
is likely the reason behind these pains.

Any thoughts on this? I keep working on the hip mobility unloaded at the moment (stretching and prying basically) and will see a sports doc tomorrow to discuss further options. Anyhow from what I understand these low back pains, hernias etc. are often the result of bad form in deadlifts/ squats (i.e buttwink and rounded lower backs), likely my case as well.

Thanks for your inputs, and wishing you happy holidays and Merry Christmas!

Nils
 
@Nils BA Sfg1 , thanks for the update.

I don't know the likelihood that what the MRI shows was caused by squatting/deadlifting with bad form, but it's certainly a cautionary note for us all. Form is super important!! And good coaching is the best way to get there.

Getting to know the works of Dr. Stuart McGill would probably be a great move. www.backfitpro.com

I'm really interested in what the sports doc says. In my very-much-non-medical opinion, it sounds like your situation is recoverable and you can get stronger and pain free! At least, I hope so! Keep us posted...
 
@Nils BA Sfg1 , maybe you should get your hips assessed as well to see how much of your lack of mobility in the hips is due to bony anatomy vs just a lack of flexibility. I assess this a lot in my patients with back issues. Some of us are not built to squat as beautifully deep as others with a straight back. It's a matter of structure. Other things like torso to femur length ratios matter too.

The back mechanic by Stuart McGill is a great read btw.
 
Hi guys, I hope you are all well :) Just wanted to give you a quick update on my back rehab for the last 6 weeks. No lifting for almost 2 months by now, actually not much of anything except rehab exercises. I have read both "The back Mechanic" and "The Gift of Injury" from Mcgill, and am implementing all the back-sparing stuff, neutral spine during daily activites etc. and the Big 3 exercises daily. I have realised that for my entire life I have been rounding my back in simple everyday situations (tying shoes, picking up stuff), and this most likely has built the foundation for what then happened when I squatted and deadlifted with a buttwink. I did the rocking hip assessment Mcgill explains in the book and I should be able to get to just under parallel with a neutral back standing up, as I can do it in the kneeling position. I just have not yet figured out how.

A month and a half (so far) with a Mckenzie physiotherapist has taught me quite a bit as well, namely that I had no idea what a neutral back felt like. It feels like I am overarching crazily when in fact the back is just neutral, and I really struggle from a strength/ endurance perspective to keep the position for longer periods of time.

I just ordered some lumbar supports from Backfitpro to have instead of all the pillows I am using daily to support my low back when sitting and sleeping, as that's something I really feel relieves discomfort.

My daily program right now looks something like this:

- Mcgill Curlup - 7-5-3 reps (10sec holds each side)
- Rolling side planks 7-5-3 reps (10sec left - 5 sec front plank - 10 sec right)
- Bird-dog 7-5-3 reps (10 sec holds each side)
- Bodyweight squats going as low as I can with neutral spine and holding the bottom position for 30-40 sec (3-4 reps)

3-4 times a week I add :

- KB goblet squats with a 12kg KB, just holding the bottom position for 20 sec, slowly opening the hips (3-4 reps)

A few brief sessions of very light two-hand swings have been OK so far, and I will keep building up those over the next few weeks. Deadstops are probably better than doing 10 straight (like I have this week) though, to really focus on form reset between each rep.
I have tried some light KB deadlifts from the floor (24kg) but the pain reappeared. Next time I will try to pull from elevated blocks, as I think I don't really maintain good form pulling from the floor.
I would love to do light TGU's, but I feel that my lower back is rounding during the transition from sitting to the "plumber position", giving small pain signals when I have tried it.

The difficulty is knowing when to push and when not to, as there is also a point where I have to try things or I'll never move forward!

Thank you for all the book tips and support, there is such a wealth of knowledge out there and I have learned so much during these six weeks :)

Take care,

Nils
 
IMHO, some quality time with a Flexible Steel Instructor ought to be in your future. If you’re interested and don’t have someone local, happy to discuss working with you via Skype.

-S-
 
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