Kettlebell C&p and sq program

[dc]

Worse case scenario or a last resort, punch out as many push-ups as you can & do as many bicep curls using the other arm as resistance as you can just before you head off, pump shoulders chest & arms full of blood. Then periodically through the night duck out somewhere & knockout sets of 10 push-ups & as many curls as to keep the pump up. Just don’t get caught as you’ll look like a knob & ruin all the hard work.

 

[Tirofijo]

Get StrongFirst. Double 16s won't do too much for your muscle mass. Once you can do it with strict 24s presses, you are on the right path.

This sounds like kettlebell broscience. If the rep ranges, effort and volume are in tune for building mass, does it matter if he has to use 16s and is not yet strong enough for 24s? His muscles don't know what numbers are stamped on the side of the bell. (Besides, doing double 16s is a path to strict 24 presses.)

 

[Mirek]

I am CEO of Kettlebell Broscience Headquarter!

If the rep ranges, effort and volume are in tune for building mass, does it matter if he has to use 16s and is not yet strong enough for 24s?

ad rep ranges - 5 or less reps are not ideal for muscle building
ad effort - weak effort does not count as much as strong(er) effort
ad volume - as 16s are merely 66% intensity of 24s, so the more volume would be needed

Did any grown a#@ male ever get significant amount of muscles working with grand total of 32kg, twice a week?

 

[dc]

Did any grown a#@ male ever get significant amount of muscles working with grand total of 32kg, twice a week?

Not twice a week, but put on 5kgs muscle using strictly 16s 5/6 times a week. I know I’m not huge but we’ll see what the 24 does when I’m finished with it, then the 32 & so on. 83kgs to 88kgs in 6mths 185cm tall 45yrs old. Once I owned the weight I made the exercises harder eg stopping upward momentum on swings then forcing bell down with power, really pulling the bell down on presses, extremely slow getups etc. I did this cause I had a bad habit of being to keen to jump to the next bell up & would keep injuring myself. Now I don’t just own the 16s they’re a part of me.

 

[Mirek]

View attachment 5059
Not twice a week, but put on 5kgs muscle using strictly 16s 5/6 times a week. I know I’m not huge but we’ll see what the 24 does when I’m finished with it, then the 32 & so on. 83kgs to 88kgs in 6mths 185cm tall 45yrs old. Once I owned the weight I made the exercises harder eg stopping upward momentum on swings then forcing bell down with power, really pulling the bell down on presses, extremely slow getups etc. I did this cause I had a bad habit of being to keen to jump to the next bell up & would keep injuring myself. Now I don’t just own the 16s they’re a part of me.

5kg/half year with double 16s is pretty good. I admit that I would not expected that, even for 5/6 per week training frequency.

Nevertheless, I still stand by my point: spending three months of doing e.g. ROP (or any other low reps/lots of sets protocol)
and getting stronger in the process will allow you to handle heavier bells and to build muscles much more effectively.

 

[Maine-ah KB]

I'll make a point about RoP, while it isn't a "hypertrophy" program will add mass, if your eating a lot. I'm part way through a cycle and my triceps, shoulders, lats and pecs are noticeably larger (not huge, just bigger). my working weight is 24kg for most of my reps (28 for lower rungs) and about 10-15lbs for pull ups. my point is working on getting strong will make you more muscly if you keep the rests low. RoP wouldn't be the most appropriate considering your time restrictions, but there are other faster strength programs, like dry fighting weight.

 

[Sean M]

I'll make a point about RoP, while it isn't a "hypertrophy" program will add mass, if your eating a lot. I'm part way through a cycle and my triceps, shoulders, lats and pecs are noticeably larger (not huge, just bigger). my working weight is 24kg for most of my reps (28 for lower rungs) and about 10-15lbs for pull ups. my point is working on getting strong will make you more muscly if you keep the rests low. RoP wouldn't be the most appropriate considering your time restrictions, but there are other faster strength programs, like dry fighting weight.

I can testify. I did it with 16kg and felt beefier in my shoulders; looking forward to the results of my next cycle with 20/24. Halfway through DFW with 2x16kg as a comparison to see what that does for size and strength (hoping it will allow me to go right to RoP with 24s and not needing 20kg rungs).

 

[Maine-ah KB]

@Sean M don't be worry about doing mixed ladders, say rung 1 24kg, rung 2 20, rung 3 20 etc. its what ive been doing and its going really well.

 

[Tirofijo]

I am CEO of Kettlebell Broscience Headquarter!



ad rep ranges - 5 or less reps are not ideal for muscle building
ad effort - weak effort does not count as much as strong(er) effort
ad volume - as 16s are merely 66% intensity of 24s, so the more volume would be needed

Did any grown a#@ male ever get significant amount of muscles working with grand total of 32kg, twice a week?

Whether the 5 rep range is ideal is a different conversation (most would say it isn’t.)

Whether his goal to put on mass should be put aside until he’s stronger is another point (that I would agree with but he’s not asking me. He wants some mass, apparently.)

I’m more wondering if you can’t put on noteworthy mass until you’ve first reached an arbitrary strength standard. (One not even adjusted for height/weight). Pressing 24kgs in this case.

I don’t consider 16kg bells to be 66% the intensity of 24s. (If you can press the 16 but can’t press the 24, wouldnt we say the 24 is infinitely more intense?)

Intensity is usually stated as a percentage of 1RM. Thats why I say 16s can work if they are the proper % of 1RM with the proper number of reps and set (volume). The body doesn’t know what the weights are. It just knows how hard the effort was.



(I used ‘effort’ rather than ‘intensity’ in my first post. I reckon they are interchangeable in my mind.)

 

[Inky]

To my mind, an possibly a different debate, when I attended the SFG, Mike Sousa told us that both he and Mark Rifkind got really strong using just a 16kg kettlebell. As a teacher for getting the correct tension within the body and the correct groove the kettlebell should travel, it may be a good choice.

Now, I don't know what rep schemes they used, but Mike talks a lot about ladders. Plus, bottom ups pressing a 16kg.........

Just my tuppence (or two cents for the Americans )

 

[Mirek]

Whether the 5 rep range is ideal is a different conversation (most would say it isn’t.)

Whether his goal to put on mass should be put aside until he’s stronger is another point (that I would agree with but he’s not asking me. He wants some mass, apparently.)

I’m more wondering if you can’t put on noteworthy mass until you’ve first reached an arbitrary strength standard. (One not even adjusted for height/weight). Pressing 24kgs in this case.

I don’t consider 16kg bells to be 66% the intensity of 24s. (If you can press the 16 but can’t press the 24, wouldnt we say the 24 is infinitely more intense?)

Intensity is usually stated as a percentage of 1RM. Thats why I say 16s can work if they are the proper % of 1RM with the proper number of reps and set (volume). The body doesn’t know what the weights are. It just knows how hard the effort was.


(I used ‘effort’ rather than ‘intensity’ in my first post. I reckon they are interchangeable in my mind.)

He might not have asked that but provided the name of this forum, the answer shall not be all that unexpected.

I do not think there are any standards for the minimal weight that works for muscle building,
but generally more is better and pump with heavy weights is the best.

My answer was mostly motivated by implicit assumption that he, who wants to gain muscles,
wants to get also stronger. And the adult male who cannot press 24s is not strong by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Tirofijo]

To my mind, an possibly a different debate, when I attended the SFG, Mike Sousa told us that both he and Mark Rifkind got really strong using just a 16kg kettlebell. As a teacher for getting the correct tension within the body and the correct groove the kettlebell should travel, it may be a good choice.

Now, I don't know what rep schemes they used, but Mike talks a lot about ladders. Plus, bottom ups pressing a 16kg.........

Just my tuppence (or two cents for the Americans )

To add to that, we are talking about doubles with the 16kg, which is harder than singles. "Make light weights heavy" as Marty Gallagher would say.

 

[Sauli]

Getting stronger should be priority #1. Size gains will follow to some degree anyway. Sig Klein challenge aims for Dbl 32kg clean & press for 14 reps. Thats pretty good long term goal. Guys who can do that are stronger and bigger than average.

 

[Caleb McCain]

5kg/half year with double 16s is pretty good. I admit that I would not expected that, even for 5/6 per week training frequency.

Nevertheless, I still stand by my point: spending three months of doing e.g. ROP (or any other low reps/lots of sets protocol)
and getting stronger in the process will allow you to handle heavier bells and to build muscles much more effectively.

I have completed ROP with the 16 and felt good with the weight; however, if I combine your point and DC's post I see that I have not truly "become one" with the 16 - thus my difficulty with multiple reps of the 24.

Thanks gentlemen.

 

[Mirek]

I have completed ROP with the 16 and felt good with the weight; however, if I combine your point and DC's post I see that I have not truly "become one" with the 16 - thus my difficulty with multiple reps of the 24.

Thanks gentlemen.

Would ROP with 20 kg be a possibility?

 

[Caleb McCain]

Would ROP with 20 kg be a possibility?

20kg is not a possibility for me right now, but what would you think of using the 24kg on the lower rungs of the ROP? I believe I saw someone else in this thread mention doing that, and it sounded like a good idea.

 

[Sean M]

20kg is not a possibility for me right now, but what would you think of using the 24kg on the lower rungs of the ROP? I believe I saw someone else in this thread mention doing that, and it sounded like a good idea.

If all you have is 16 and 24, then it's better than continuing/repeating with 16 (assuming you've maxed out 5 ladders to 5 with 16). When I resume RoP in a few weeks I'll be doing rung 1-2 with 24 and the rest at 20, and every month assess if I can replace the next rung with 24, and so on.

Another option if 24 is ~3RM is Soju & Tuba, which has you at sets of 1 for several sessions, then slowly adding a rep per set over time. It might be perfect for you to bridge the gap enough to do a full RoP cycle with 24 without needing the 20.

 

[Mirek]

20kg is not a possibility for me right now, but what would you think of using the 24kg on the lower rungs of the ROP? I believe I saw someone else in this thread mention doing that, and it sounded like a good idea.

Yes, good idea! Start with singles at the beginning of ladders and see how it evolves.

 

[Caleb McCain]

Yes, good idea! Start with singles at the beginning of ladders and see how it evolves.

Thanks for the help.

If all you have is 16 and 24, then it's better than continuing/repeating with 16 (assuming you've maxed out 5 ladders to 5 with 16). When I resume RoP in a few weeks I'll be doing rung 1-2 with 24 and the rest at 20, and every month assess if I can replace the next rung with 24, and so on.

Another option if 24 is ~3RM is Soju & Tuba, which has you at sets of 1 for several sessions, then slowly adding a rep per set over time. It might be perfect for you to bridge the gap enough to do a full RoP cycle with 24 without needing the 20.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Steve Freides]

The rep range isn't the only determinant for hypertrophy. A bit of math suggests that if you do 5 sets of 8 reps with a particular rest period, you can do 8 sets of 5 reps with shorter rest periods and end up with the same volume in the same time, and you then have the possibility to use a heavier with with 8 sets of 5 than you might with 5 sets of 8.

-S-