Kettlebell C&p and sq program

[Steve W.]

For some reason I'm drawn to the Prometheus protocol, but looking at KM I might see how it delivers. The only problem is the snatches. My ceiling is just too low.

If your ceiling is high enough to lockout a weight overhead (press, get up, etc.) it is high enough for snatches.

On the 16kg question, here's my inconclusive experience.

I did Kettlebell Muscle with double 16s.

Effortwise, it was very challenging.

I did not particularly gain muscle from it, but I deliberately didn't eat to do so.

Strengthwise, before the program, I could press double 32s for 2 solid reps (plus possibly a third shakier rep, depending on the day), but had to drop down to double 16s to meet the prerequisite for the program of being able to get 10 solid reps with your working weight. In my experience it was a well-calibrated test because the program was very tough with 16s. I could not have done it as written with 20s. After the program, I could still get the same number of reps with 32s, but my rack felt much more solid and stable. Subjectively, the reps I could do felt stronger. So I did not build a lot of strength using nothing heavier than double 16s for three months, but maintained the strength I had, plus maybe a little extra.

 

[apa]

The flip in snatches makes it probably go higher than in the average press and getup. Depending on form.

A valid concern if the ceiling is low.

 

[Mirek]

...
Effortwise, it was very challenging.
...
I did not particularly gain muscle from it, but I deliberately didn't eat to do so.
...
So I did not build a lot of strength using nothing heavier than double 16s for three months, but maintained the strength I had, plus maybe a little extra.

Exactly illustrates what I tried to say.

 

[Steve W.]

The flip in snatches makes it probably go higher than in the average press and getup. Depending on form.

There is no reason the bell should go higher than it is in the lockout position. The bell should not "flip." Even if you go straight over the top, the bell is rotating on the way up and your hand moves underneath it; it should not flip over your hand.

 

[dcc449]

@Steve W. seems like you've done a lot of double KB work. Curious if you (or others reading this) saw much transfer to the one arm press. I'd have to imagine there is some, but would be interested in any anecdotes!

 

[Steve W.]

@Steve W. seems like you've done a lot of double KB work. Curious if you (or others reading this) saw much transfer to the one arm press. I'd have to imagine there is some, but would be interested in any anecdotes!

Yes, in my experience there is a lot of transfer, moreso than the other way around.

The biggest differences between the one and two arm press are the increased mobility demand and reduced ability to lean and wedge under the weight in the two arm press. In the one arm press, you can lean and wedge under the weight a lot more easily, and lockout overhead without your shoulders being square. You have a lot more "wiggle room," literally and figuratively.

In the two arm press, you're a lot more locked in and don't have as good leverage. Aside from the injury risk, if you don't have good shoulder and t-spine mobility, you won't be able to achieve a good "stacked" lockout position, with the bells supported by your structure and alignment. Instead, you will have to use muscle power to fight against your movement restrictions to achieve and maintain lockout.

Both the leverage factor and the mobility factor can make the two arm press a lot harder. This can reduce the amount of weight you can use and/or the number of reps you can do with a given weight. But when you go back to try one arm presses, they seem a lot easier.

One other reason I think double presses have carryover to one arm presses is the disinhibition factor. Feeling the weight or two bells on your body gets you comfortable supporting a bigger weight (even if it is divided between two bells). So you have less of a subconscious threat response and your nervous system allows you to express more force.

BTW, a lot of these points about the double KB press also apply to the barbell MP, which also has very good carryover to the one arm KB MP

 

[apa]

There is no reason the bell should go higher than it is in the lockout position. The bell should not "flip." Even if you go straight over the top, the bell is rotating on the way up and your hand moves underneath it; it should not flip over your hand.

I am not looking to argue. But do check out this Snatch here: A+A&A by Harald Motz. The Snatch does in my opinion go high enough to maybe make it risky to do them with low ceiling. Obviously, his form is great. I just wanted to point out my observation and it might be beneficial for Hunter1313 to check and see if the 'bell will indeed hit the ceiling.

Safe training everyone. Have a good weekend.

 

[dcc449]

Yes, in my experience there is a lot of transfer, moreso than the other way around.

The biggest differences between the one and two arm press are the increased mobility demand and reduced ability to lean and wedge under the weight in the two arm press. In the one arm press, you can lean and wedge under the weight a lot more easily, and lockout overhead without your shoulders being square. You have a lot more "wiggle room," literally and figuratively.

In the two arm press, you're a lot more locked in and don't have as good leverage. Aside from the injury risk, if you don't have good shoulder and t-spine mobility, you won't be able to achieve a good "stacked" lockout position, with the bells supported by your structure and alignment. Instead, you will have to use muscle power to fight against your movement restrictions to achieve and maintain lockout.

Both the leverage factor and the mobility factor can make the two arm press a lot harder. This can reduce the amount of weight you can use and/or the number of reps you can do with a given weight. But when you go back to try one arm presses, they seem a lot easier.

One other reason I think double presses have carryover to one arm presses is the disinhibition factor. Feeling the weight or two bells on your body gets you comfortable supporting a bigger weight (even if it is divided between two bells). So you have less of a subconscious threat response and your nervous system allows you to express more force.

BTW, a lot of these points about the double KB press also apply to the barbell MP, which also has very good carryover to the one arm KB MP

Great stuff, appreciate your thoughts!

 

[Steve W.]

I am not looking to argue.

Me neither.

But do check out this Snatch here: A+A&A by Harald Motz. The Snatch does in my opinion go high enough to maybe make it risky to do them with low ceiling.

Coincidentally, after I posted my comment about the snatch never going higher than the lockout regardless of technique (within the norms of good technique), I went and took a second look at Harald's video to see where the high point of his snatch reaches. I watched the video at quarter speed and used the top of the frame as a reference point.

[Edited after looking at the video an additional time] Looking at the side view, it appears to me that the highest the bell reaches is just about the same height as where the top of his hand ends up in the lockout position. The bell reaches just above the top of the frame before the lockout, and after the lockout the knuckles of his hand are also just above the of the top of the frame.

But I'll back off my absolutist language and say that if you have a couple of inches of clearance above your knuckles with a bell held overhead, you should have enough room to snatch.

 

[Maine-ah KB]

quick question, could you not take your bells out side for snatches? people may give you funny looks but give it week and the neighbors loose interest in the weirdo playing with odd suitcase/cannon ball things.

 

[Sean M]

@Steve W. seems like you've done a lot of double KB work. Curious if you (or others reading this) saw much transfer to the one arm press. I'd have to imagine there is some, but would be interested in any anecdotes!

This is one thing I’m testing with my “fat loss detour” of 4 weeks of Dry Fighting Weight, which is double bell C&P (and squat) with two 16’s, coming off RoP with one 16, which yielded multiple reps per arm with 24. I’ll test next Saturday to see if my 24 press RM went up.

 

[Deleted member 316]

My knuckles touch the ceiling just a hair before full lockout on presses.

 

[Deleted member 316]

Question about double front squats. Since the stance is wider to accommodate the two bells between the legs, do you narrow the stance for the squat then step out for the backswing or just squat as is in the wider stance?

 

[Sean M]

Question about double front squats. Since the stance is wider to accommodate the two bells between the legs, do you narrow the stance for the squat then step out for the backswing or just squat as is in the wider stance?

I’m exploring my stance (used to goblet squat which is narrower), but I’d say you should adjust for each movement. If you need to go wider for the clean, narrow up before the squat and then shift out in the rack before drop-cleaning or re-cleaning.

 

[Steve W.]

@HUNTER1313
Adjust your stance. No reason to use other than your most comfortable/strongest stance for any exercise.

Over time, you learn to make the adjustment unconsciously without a lot of dancing around.

For DFSQ, I end up moving each foot in a little after catching the bells in the rack, and then back out at the end of the set to drop the bells out of the rack, and I've done it enough so I don't have to consciously think about it.

For one arm C&P my press stance is also narrower than my clean stance so I keep the working side foot in place, but move the other foot in as the bell is floating into the rack. That way I don't have to make any stance adjustment after the bell is racked, since I'm catching it in my press stance already.

 

[Oscar]

For one arm C&P my press stance is also narrower than my clean stance so I keep the working side foot in place, but move the other foot in as the bell is floating into the rack. That way I don't have to make any stance adjustment after the bell is racked, since I'm catching it in my press stance already.

I once so a video of Pavel saying that this is the way to go. If you catch the clean with a wide stance and then adjust your feet, you lose the tension of catching the clean, which is necessary for a good press. So if you have to move your feet, do it while the KB is in the air.

 

[Tirofijo]

I just found the article. The grad workout. All it says is to repeat alot.

He's recommended a 'you go, I go" tempo, which I interpreted as a 1:1 work to rest ration.

(Strictly speaking, a "you go, I go" tempo might have a little more rest than work as folks take a second or two to get set up when the partner puts the bell down, but as usual I'm over thinking that.)

I can do a set in roughly 20 seconds. I set the timer for 20 seconds on and 20 seconds off.

I did it for 20 sets and found it was much further on the 'conditioning' end of the spectrum than what I was looking for. I was puffing hard.

As soon as my current injury allows, I'm going to go up a bell size and do EMOM for 20 minutes and see how that works. That should be about a 1:2 work rest ratio.

 

[Sauli]

I just got an idea about this program, it’s simple two exercise workout: Power to the KB people.

Heavy double clean 2x5/3x3/1x max
One arm press 2x1,2,3

Use 5-10 rm bell for presses.
Repeat same workout until it gets easy and then add heavier bell, but only to singles first.

4-5 times a week.

Maybe 10-15 min session. This could work. It ain’t c&p & squat, but close enough.

 

[Tirofijo]

Just came across another C&P and Front Squat program.

Kettlebear

FIREBIRD PERFORMANCE: KettleBear Program

It uses ladders so shades of ROP.

The creator used to post here @Andrew Palmer

 

[KIWI5]

I notice that the Kettlebear Program programs a different sort of ladder than the one I am using for 'Dry Fighting Weight'-the Kettlebear Program has you doing only ONE clean per ladder of Double Clean and Press, for example: he writes only one clean on the second ladder, followed by two press. On DFW, I am doing a clean before each press.....I am doing too many cleans? Even if I am- it can't be a bad thing.....
"So, perform your Double Cleans & Presses, and immediately upon completion, perform your Double Front Squat set, then rest. Also, each comma represents a clean before the number of press reps eg. one press, one clean, two presses, one clean, three presses…"