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Bodyweight Calisthenics as a Base

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Adam R Mundorf

Adam R Mundorf

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Hello StrongFirst,

"I’ve seen many gymnasts capable of planche push-ups do double bodyweight bench presses on their first attempts. Conversely, I’ve never seen a weightlifter capable of doing a double bodyweight bench press even come close to a planche push-up initially." -- Christopher Sommer

What do you think of this quote from Christopher Sommer? The above quote from Christopher Sommer makes me think that calisthenics transfers over to weights but it doesn't go the other way around.
  1. Do you believe that one should achieve a certain level of mastery with just bodyweight before moving onto weights?
  2. Why do calisthenics seem to transfer over to weights but it doesn't go the other way?
  3. I've noticed allot of successful StrongFirst instructors have a broad base with calisthenics through military service or sport. @Pavel was in the Russian military. @Rif was a gymnast. @Eric Frohardt was a Navy Seal. @Al Ciampa was in the Army. @Anna C was in the military.
    1. It just seems to me some of the most successful and notable instructors had a broad base of calisthenics GPP before moving onto the weights.
Thank you, Adam
 
How many people in general population can do a planche pushup compared to a double BW bench?

How many people over 220lbs can even do a planche pushup?

Different builds will be better at different tasks. The larger and heavier you are the more difficult bodyweight work will become, at any body comp.

The biggest advantage to calisthenics is you get used to moving your body through space. The biggest disadvantage is you are more effected by build, bodycomp, skill in movement progressions.

Basic calisthenics are a good beginner approach, but advanced bodyweight training is more difficult to progress on several levels compared to external resistance.
 
I got my straddle planche push up in the past (summer 2019). It's still on my log. Double bodyweight bench press? No way. I also develop a bad habit of bench press (losing tension in the upper back, lower the bar to low into my stomach...)

I agree that calisthenics is good for beginner strength. I did lots of dips, little chin-up and lots of handstand/headstand push up. It transfer well to my overhead press (I got like 55 kg press for the first time at weight 70 kg - not a big feat but not weak compared to my peer). But I would not recommend planche or front lever or back lever progression for beginner.
 
There might be something to it. I would tend to think it's more a volume of work -- physical labor, calisthenics, recreational activity, sports -- that forms a base. But I would agree that years of any of that would make a difference when starting to do strength training.
 
Hello,

I agree with the above. Depending on how you are built, some moves or sports are easier (or harder).

For instance, I have long limbs but I am not very muscular. This is not an 'advantage' for body lever moves such as planche, front lever, etc.. It is possible to get them (I was able to do front lever) but it requires a lot of time. Daniel Vadnal is a good example. It is easy to maintain though, at least to a point. This is not an advantage for lifting as well.

However, being light and tall makes it easier for running or endurance (high rep sets).

C. Sommer is an excellent coach, no doubt about that. However, when he says what is quoted, I guess he has in mind some of his elite athletes, who dedicate hours and hours to training. Even Herschel Walkers had an impressive bench the first time he tried, even if he only did "basic calisthenics" (push ups, etc...) and not gymnastics.

Dan John says that one of the best combination could be kettlebell training and gymnastics.

Even without getting to C. Sommer's level, maybe there is a "better" transfer from bodyweight training to weight training because our brain is first "programmed" to make us move in space, and only after that, make us moving stuff around. I remember I read a study along these lines a while ago. Basically, "cognitive training" (such as fighting, handstand training, crawling, and even juggling, jumping to reach a target, etc...) was proven to improve athletic abilities (mainly lifting).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
As somone who spent a number of years training and eventually teaching in a Gymnasticbodies affiliate location (before they parted ways with GB and eventually had to shut down due to covid...), I will say this:
Adam R Mundorf said:
  1. Do you believe that one should achieve a certain level of mastery with just bodyweight before moving onto weights?
  2. Why do calisthenics seem to transfer over to weights but it doesn't go the other way?
Click to expand...

It depends.

High level calisthenics skills can teach you a LOT about how to coordinate your core with your limbs while exerting a great deal of tension. I think that can transfer to weights. That being said, high level calisthenic movments (planche pushups for instance) take a loooooooooooooonnnnnnnnng time for most people to get even ok at. On the older gymnasticbodies forum Sommer would sometimes speculate that if someone followed the (old) foundations program to a T, and was able to progress every time the opportunity arose (i.e. no injuries), it would take something like ~4 years to acheive a straddle planche. That's just going off my memory, so I might be off with that number.

So "mastery" is a somewhat subjective term. What counts as "a certain level of mastery?" Imo one may not need to spend a ton of time on bodyweight moves before touching weights, but decent proficieny at basics (planks, pushups, pullups, etc) will help a lot.

If you have no access to weights or don't want to buy them you can start with the basics (pushups/pullup progressions, etc) and build on them. The basic progressions for planche and front lever were scapular pushups/planks, and hollow work, respectively. SF teaches one arm pushups as a way to progress pushups, calisthenics teaches planche pushup progressions to progress.

You can get super strong with just bodyweight moves, but as @Steve Freides said, it is definitely trickier to manage. Imo its easier to work around body imbalances with kettbells than it is with the shoudler girdle requirements for 90-degree pushups or planches, etc. Higher level calisthenics skills require a solid shoulder girdle (and time spent conditioning connective tissue) or injuries will likely say hello.

Transfer to weights? Hard to say. I've seen really muscular dudes come in who can bench a lot but struggle with basic calisthenics moves. I've also seen people who could press heavy weight learn harder moves faster.
 
As Sommer points out, much of the time for calisthenics improvements is the strengthening of tendons and ligaments. As they are less vascular than muscle, tendons and ligaments take longer to strengthen and recover.
As someone who has done the opposite, barbell training first, I can say that I progressed much more rapidly than Sommer advises. I could hold a planche within a month of practice and could do planche pushups using paralletes. As Sommer predicts, however, I did end up with soreness and pain in my elbows from the lack of conditioning.
All of this to say that I would be curious to hear if calisthenics to weight training would produce fewer injuries in the long run given the conditioning of other structures beyond muscles.
 
Hello,
I often wonder about this.Through martial arts I was lucky enough to get a pretty wide exposure to calisthenics and bodyweight movements.I would reckon it would depend on your goals, but I can tell you that more and more high level MMA praticioners are using more and more bodyweight based supplemental training.For whatever reason weights and lifting have seem to fallen out of favor( maybe due to pandemic?)If you ever look at Thai ‘s their training is usually an aerobic run in the morning, and mostly technique based training with calisthenics thrown in here .And they are in incredible shape .Has anyone seen the YouTube channel “ Iron wolf”? Calisthenics burpees based high rep workouts . And that guy is a beast.Definitely a specific type of training though.Also Mark Lauren bodyweight based training I like.I guess a lot of it comes down to what you like,what works for you , and what you’ll stick with. Also what your goals are.
 
I do think certain modalities (barbell vs kbell vs dumbell vs bodyweight) have certain advantages over others with respect to certain goals... For example, of you want to explore powerlifting, it would be tough to do that without a barbell! He he... Or if your goal was to meet the Simple or Sinister standard, you need a kettlebell, pushups and goblet squats arent going to be enough.

If you define strength as being able to maximize your ability to manipulate external objects, it is hard to beat the barbell. If you define strength as being able to maximize your ability to manipulate your own body throughout space, it is hard to beat high tension bodyweight training. IMHO.

But, ultimately, for folks with more general strength/health goals, I think it can all work. The modality is just a tool. The important thing is consistency throughout your life and pursuing progression. Which one are you passionate about and have access too? That is the Right one! And maybe this changes over time.

Right now I am doing mostly bodyweight training. It works well. After my neck heals up, I'm going to try that plank pushup (I'm 240 lb, a little fatter than I would like to be, at the moment, 220 lb is the goal (darn Easter chocolate!)). I've done them before when I was much lighter and younger!

Regards,

Eric
 
IMO one would need to add more context to answer your questions. First of all there is a big difference between just picking calisthenics exercises instead of exercises with weights and learning a competitive calisthenics based sport like gymnastics. My old shotokan club shared the training hall with a gymnastics club and besides practicing classic gymnastics skills they did a lot of other training to help them and basic calisthenics strength exercises like dips, hand stand push ups and climbing ropes and poles were just the cherry on top of their very broad training program.

In addition to that you would need to keep in mind that competitive and club/group activities play by somewhat different rules than exercising on your own to get in shape. Joe and Jane Normalo who show up to train 3 times a week so they still fit in their bikini when they hit the beach will probably not have much in common with amazing athlete X and special operator Y who we all admire.
 
william bad butt said:
If you define strength as being able to maximize your ability to manipulate external objects, it is hard to beat the barbell
Click to expand...
This is a really good point. Calisthenics and bodyweight training allows you to learn how to manipulate your own body through space, whereas barbells, kettle bells and such allow you to learn how to manipulate external objects. I think that you would need a good mix of both to be “well rounded.”
 
Hello,

I strongly agree with @bluejeff

For a long while, I trained only with bdw (pistols, HSPU, OAOL PU, OAP, pull ups). I did this after a long period of kb training (ROP @24 Timeless Simple, Red Zone (32 for swings, 24 for presses).

At some point, I just wanted to see if it had maintained my strength. The test was : am I still able to do Timeless Simple ?

The answer was yes ! Of course, GUs were not as smooth and beautiful because I did not practice them for a while, but it was still '90% here'. The10% were the weird feeling of carrying something. It was like my body 'forgot' the feeling of moving a weight. It was the same for something less skill related, like carries.

Raw strength was here, but it was like if I was not 'confident'. This is highly mental I guess.

I really like bdw training, but weightlifting always gives me the confidence and 'guarantee' that I can safely and strongly lift in everyday life. It maintains my body abilities.

It seems it comes down to 'use it or lose it'

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I want to begin by saying that bodyweight training can be an excellent way to establish a bar of strength. What strong person is incapable of performing crisp repetitions of pushups, pullups and squats? Of course, one can have great maximal strength and be poor at moving their bodies. Since we’re talking about calisthenics, let’s talk about relative strength.

One problem I have with Sommer’s dissertation is this. Gymnasts do far more than planches to build their strength levels. As far as relative strength goes however, gymnastics are high up on that totem.

A double bodyweight bench? I believe it. The same body leverages that would be advantageous to a bench press ie short limbs is often possessed by world class gymnasts. Success in gymnastics gravitates to short and light humans. I wouldn’t be surprised if the gymnast in this example weighed all of 135 lbs at 5 ft 5.

A second problem. I’ve known and seen gymnasts here in France who are capable of doing planche pushups. Look on Instagram, you’ll find plenty of small dudes doing planches. Frankly, I’d be surprised if many of these guys could press their bodyweight on the bench.

Now, before I discourage anyone from calisthenics I have to mention my Calisthenics experiment last year, where for two months I touched no iron amidst the confinement period. I did planche practice, OAP, HSPU, regular pushups, pullups and front levers on all sorts of objects, and pistols, sissy squats, airborne lunges, and very high rep bodyweight squats (one day I almost hit 500 in a set.) The very first day I returned to the barbell, I pr’d on the floor press and deadlift. Two days later I pr’d on the overhead press. My squat remained the same. Know that I’d been training with barbells and had built respectable levels of strength years prior to this.

Now, why did this work for me? Firstly, novel stimulus. I am absolutely not suited advantageously for gymnastics. Because of this, I feel my results were magnified. Getting into a tuck planche, doing a one armoushup all challenged me in ways the barbell never could. When I returned to the bar, I still had the technique of the lifts. Secondly, I probably recovered from the onslaught of heavy lifting during this period. My spine was fresh from calisthenics and my nervous system primed.

When you say CrossFit may have had it right, it’s getting there. My current training mixes calisthenics with heavy weights. Many of the greatest old timers have done similar things. Look at Aleks Selkin’s article on the site

www.strongfirst.com

Calisthenics for Iron Domination: From Bodyweight to Heavy Weight | StrongFirst

Follow this calisthenics training program to demolish your previous strength records and replace them with all new levels of iron domination.
www.strongfirst.com

For me both are important, relative and maximal strength while a specialist focuses on a singular discipline. If you’re a powerlifters, it makes no difference how many pullups you can do if your total is on point. Likewise, a gymnast should really have little concern what their bench press is. I choose to be neither of these, yet ina way, both. Decide what it is you want and let that dictate your course of action.
 
Philippe Geoffrion said:
I want to begin by saying that bodyweight training can be an excellent way to establish a bar of strength. What strong person is incapable of performing crisp repetitions of pushups, pullups and squats? Of course, one can have great maximal strength and be poor at moving their bodies. Since we’re talking about calisthenics, let’s talk about relative strength.

One problem I have with Sommer’s dissertation is this. Gymnasts do far more than planches to build their strength levels. As far as relative strength goes however, gymnastics are high up on that totem.

A double bodyweight bench? I believe it. The same body leverages that would be advantageous to a bench press ie short limbs is often possessed by world class gymnasts. Success in gymnastics gravitates to short and light humans. I wouldn’t be surprised if the gymnast in this example weighed all of 135 lbs at 5 ft 5.

A second problem. I’ve known and seen gymnasts here in France who are capable of doing planche pushups. Look on Instagram, you’ll find plenty of small dudes doing planches. Frankly, I’d be surprised if many of these guys could press their bodyweight on the bench.

Now, before I discourage anyone from calisthenics I have to mention my Calisthenics experiment last year, where for two months I touched no iron amidst the confinement period. I did planche practice, OAP, HSPU, regular pushups, pullups and front levers on all sorts of objects, and pistols, sissy squats, airborne lunges, and very high rep bodyweight squats (one day I almost hit 500 in a set.) The very first day I returned to the barbell, I pr’d on the floor press and deadlift. Two days later I pr’d on the overhead press. My squat remained the same. Know that I’d been training with barbells and had built respectable levels of strength years prior to this.

Now, why did this work for me? Firstly, novel stimulus. I am absolutely not suited advantageously for gymnastics. Because of this, I feel my results were magnified. Getting into a tuck planche, doing a one armoushup all challenged me in ways the barbell never could. When I returned to the bar, I still had the technique of the lifts. Secondly, I probably recovered from the onslaught of heavy lifting during this period. My spine was fresh from calisthenics and my nervous system primed.

When you say CrossFit may have had it right, it’s getting there. My current training mixes calisthenics with heavy weights. Many of the greatest old timers have done similar things. Look at Aleks Selkin’s article on the site

www.strongfirst.com

Calisthenics for Iron Domination: From Bodyweight to Heavy Weight | StrongFirst

Follow this calisthenics training program to demolish your previous strength records and replace them with all new levels of iron domination.
www.strongfirst.com

For me both are important, relative and maximal strength while a specialist focuses on a singular discipline. If you’re a powerlifters, it makes no difference how many pullups you can do if your total is on point. Likewise, a gymnast should really have little concern what their bench press is. I choose to be neither of these, yet ina way, both. Decide what it is you want and let that dictate your course of action.
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I enjoy your calisthenics experiment. That was essentially what I was trying to say through this question. Laying a large foundation on the basic calisthenics (not gymnastics) exercises, taking them far but without moving into circus trick territory will give you a great base to build upon when you move to weight training.

More body awareness has never been a bad thing. This is one of the reasons why I love the get up, you better have awareness when you do it.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
Thank you everyone for the responses. I'm sorry to say this but maybe CrossFit had allot right when it came to mixing modalities.

Instead of being a kettlebell person or a barbell person or a calisthenics person we should all strive to be a well rounded person.
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No one at StrongFirst has suggested one should limit one's self to a single modality, see StrongFirst Elite. We do recommend, however, that one first choose to focus on a few skills and strive to excel at them rather than do many things from the beginning.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
No one at StrongFirst has suggested one should limit one's self to a single modality, see StrongFirst Elite. We do recommend, however, that one first choose to focus on a few skills and strive to excel at them rather than do many things from the beginning.

-S-
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I understand that. Now if you would introduce someone to StrongFirst would you start them with Simple and Sinister or the Naked Warrior with Flexible Steel on the side?
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
Now if you would introduce someone to StrongFirst would you start them with Simple and Sinister or the Naked Warrior with Flexible Steel on the side?
Click to expand...
Of course it depends on each person's background, but putting all that aside and assuming a health adult who has no injuries, and who has dabbled in a variety of things without much success to date, I usually start with S&S, specifically the goblet squat, the kettlebell deadlift, and the first stage or two of the getup - those are things I typically cover in a first session or two. I'd describe it as watching someone move and teaching the fundamental skills of squatting deep with a straight back, then how a deadlift is different than a squat, then working on the getup.

Some of what I'm explaining might be said to come from all the sources you cite: I talk about making space in all the joints, something we teach at Flexible Steel, as I teach the goblet squat. When I teach the kettlebell deadlift, I also talk about the barbell deadlift, and I've had some students progress to the barbell deadlift before the kettlebell swing when I think that's the right thing for them. And back to the goblet squat, I also discuss many of the same principles that apply to the pistol.

It all comes from the same place - one mind, any weapon. The modalities you refer to are differing implementations of the same set of principles, and therefore the choice of modality isn't important in theory, but when it comes to putting those principles into action in ways that have proven safe and effective across a wide range of populations and backgrounds, everybody should swing a kettlebell.

-S-
 
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