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Bodyweight Calisthenics in S&S format?

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John Kowalski

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I have a question regarding the strongfirst roadwork. High reps of calisthenics are not advisable, but what if I did sets of 5-10 reps of push ups and bw squats (considering that both movements are submaximal) with a short recovery in between - S&S format with bodyweight exercises, are the adaptations gonna be the same (A+A)?
 
what are your goals?
 
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@Pavel would be the best to answer your question, as he did the research and developed the S&S program. however, if you are not doing Swings and TGU then you are not actually doing S&S.

So am I understanding correct, you are wanting to do bodyweight exercises to reach the end goal of S&S? or are you just meaning that you want to set a time limit to reach x number of reps in those two skills?
 
Karen Smith said:
@Pavel would be the best to answer your question, as he did the research and developed the S&S program. however, if you are not doing Swings and TGU then you are not actually doing S&S.

So am I understanding correct, you are wanting to do bodyweight exercises to reach the end goal of S&S? or are you just meaning that you want to set a time limit to reach x number of reps in those two skills?
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I believe he wants similar adaptations in general fitness and work capacity that S&S delivers through its A&A protocol, but using calisthenics so that it's a bit more specific to squats and push ups.

It's a question I'm VERY interested in as well. I want to obtain the conditioning benefits of S&S but I'd like to do it with calisthenics because I have no interest in swings or get ups, but wouldn't mind working some squats/push-ups, since they have a bit better carry-over to the rest of my BW training.

I've been pointed to the SF roadwork and strength aerobics articles. But I don't want to be using OAPUs or Pistols for this since they would affect the rest of my strength training. Something with higher reps and lower load (like S&S) would be ideal.
 
The bodyweight movements we teach are strength movements that have a high CNS demand. If one wants to make the program more GPP, then one should choose variations of those movements with a lower CNS demand.

The problem with trying to build S&S out of bodyweight movements is that you can't. The kettlebell offer unique loading because of its backswing, and the getup is a special kind of support-while-moving movement that takes a fairly long time under moderate tension for each rep.

What becomes your swing for bodyweight only? You'd have to resort to jumping jacks, burpees, hindu squats, and come up with a variation of appropriate difficulty? But the problem is that you're lacking the ballistic component, so maybe jumping jacks, or jump rope. Maybe clapping or other ballistic pushup, but you're missing the hip and back focus. Maybe hindu squats, maybe jumping hindu squats, but maybe those are a lot like burpees, anyway, or what we used to call a squat thrust.

So maybe you do burpees for 20 seconds and rest for 40 seconds.

What becomes your getup? I'd be very tempted just to stick with perfect, slow, getups without any weight, but there are other options. Pistols where you rock back on something. Pistols where you hold onto a door knob with two hands (credit Steve Maxwell with that one).

So, every day, you do burpees in a :20 on, :40 off format for 10 minutes, and then you do 10 alternating singles in the two-handed doorknob pistol.

@305pelusa and @John Kowalski, why not just use a kettlebell? Why "no interest" in swings and getups?

-S-
 
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that @Pavel Macek has mentioned in a post before that when away from kettlebells, he has performed sprints in intervals like the swings from S&S - something like 10 brief sprints with adequate rest between each to ensure max speed/explosiveness - alongside following the Naked Warrior, with no issues jumping back into S&S. He may be able to comment further, though this sounds simple and to the point and is likely something I'd consider (if it works for him then I'd be a fool not to try something that someone who is further ahead than me on the same programme uses). 10x10 burpees in a similar fashion also looks like the sort of thing that would work well on paper.

Obviously progressing these options is not as simple as using a heavier kettlebell, though tougher variations can be thought up with a little imagination. I've just thought off the top of my head for the sprints:

  • Flat surface > Hill > Steeper hill
Or, if you aren't in a hilly environment:
  • Start sprint from standing > Lying on belly > Lying on back (I.e. roll over, get up, sprint)
Nevertheless, I sincerely hope that Pavel's next work will address this question. I'd absolutely love to read such a book.
 
@Steve Freides I think we replied at almost the same time there, and I'm totally with you regarding the whole CNS demand stuff... Also, what you say there about the lack of a ballistic component, this is interesting - perhaps one would have to really focus on doing an exercise such as burpees with maximum aggression and explosiveness in order to reap some of the benefits that ballistic training with kettlebells offers...

Just my thoughts...
 
I'd also add that your get-up replacement could be pistols and OAPUs done in an Easy Strength fashion (10 perfect reps per drill)? Provided GTG is not an option...
 
@Steve Freides : I understand what you mean. A lot is lost when you don't swing and do get-ups. That said, do you think you could still get similar cardiovascular effects and general work capacity adaptations with calisthenics than those from S&S however? Or is the loss of the ballistic component a big loss in terms of increasing work capacity?

Steve Freides said:
So, every day, you do burpees in a :20 on, :40 off format for 10 minutes, and then you do 10 alternating singles in the two-handed doorknob pistol.
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This is interesting. I like it. How would I go about implementing this with a HR monitor to ensure I'm getting the correct A+A adaptation? Maybe 20 secs of Burpees, and only do the next set once the HR comes back down to the correct value? Why the 20/40 ratio?

Steve Freides said:
@305pelusa and @John Kowalski, why not just use a kettlebell? Why "no interest" in swings and getups?

-S-
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For me, it's financial reasons. I know S&S delivers well in what I'm looking for, but if I could get a similar effect (even if it's a bit worse) with calisthenics, then I would actually be able to do it.

@Harry Westgate : Thank you for the sprinting suggestion. It's not easy to find a good sprinting place living in the city. I could make my way to a track, but conditioning isn't that high of a goal for me to use that time. Currently, I train exclusively at home and it's very convenient. For planche/Front Levers, I'd make the time to find a place if needed. That's sort of my logic. Essentially, it would be a great add-on but it's also not a huge priority at the moment I think.

That said, I will be moving in a year to a more suburban place where there's plenty of roads. I will be doing plenty of sprint work then I'm sure! I keep hearing about sprints being great, but never got a good chance to get into them.
 
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Hello,

I frankly do not think it is possible to really substitute swings. What you can consider are burpees with a work to rest ratio equal to 1 (20 on 20 off)

I do not think they are equivalent on the long term That said, for a while, they can maintain your level (from my experience).

It works during 2 weeks with daily training. During these two weeks, I used the following frame (with minimum rest):

=>burpees (20s on 20 off), 10 times
=> 1 OAOL PU ES superseted with 1 pistol ES
=> 2 OAOL PU ES superseted with 2 pistol ES
=> 3 OAOL PU ES superseted with 3 pistol ES

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
The closest bodyweight movement to a kettlebell swing is a broad jump isn't it? It's an unloaded swing, hinge and explode rather than resist against a weight. It's a plyo though, the closest movement but different training effect. Halfway there, I suppose. And sprinting. Again like NW being cns centred, so is sprinting. So plenty of rest required and short sprints if trying to be comparable to S&S. Maybe a combo? 1 burpee, 1 jump, 1 short sprint (40/50m), rest?
A naked get up is the closest to a loaded get up. Guess you could do longer holds, slow it right up, zone in on the finest, tiniest details and do some breath holds. On the stand position you could add a couple of pistols or deck squats. You could also put in any number of variations to make it a kind of flow thing, too. You could start each move with a hollow body hold for example too.
 
Oh and crawling. Each and every animal movement. Crawl for ages, crawl up and down a load of steps. Backward crab tends to melt your triceps, a lot of time under tension there.
 
@305pelusa, the 20/40 thing is a guesstimate for training in the A + A style. Ideally, you start by doing 20 on and 40 off, you wear the HRM, and eventually you wean yourself away from both the clock and the HRM and learn to do A + A training by feel.

-S-
 
Hello,

To a certain extent, I believe in can work (especially for the A+A side).

However, I am not sure it will work strength and power the way the swings do. What do you think about that ?

To "simulate" anti-twist, we can choose OA (or OL) burpees.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I want to be more proficient in push ups atm and I was wondering if the same methodology will work, but I gues it will because it's very similar to the famous ladders - low reps, rests between and lots of sets, it's probably the same pathway - A+A. Does the rest has to be a particularly long to avoid cumulative fatigue or should I just go by a feeling?
 
Hello,

John Kowalski said:
Does the rest has to be a particularly long to avoid cumulative fatigue or should I just go by a feeling?
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A+A progression is a long process.

Basically, yes you have to rest enough time to avoid fatigue. However, if I were you, I would rest as much as need at the beginning. Then, rest period will decrease progressively.

I do not know if an HR monitoring could be useful here ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Basically, yes you have to rest enough time to avoid fatigue.
Pet'
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The rest periods decrease naturally, but is there some kind of minimal time of rest periods required so that the glycolytic pathway is not working too much? In one of the articles, Pavel T. answered a question about russian bear program, he said that it develops glycolytic capacity, but the rest periods recommended are 30-90 seconds. I don't get it.
 
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