Bodyweight Calisthenics in S&S format?

[pet']

Hello,

The rest periods decrease naturally, but is there some kind of minimal time of rest periods required so that the glycolytic pathway is not working too much?

If we consider the swings as our "reference", then the test talk can be an option.

Otherwise a work to rest ration equal to 1 can be a goal.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[John Kowalski]

I believe he wants similar adaptations in general fitness and work capacity that S&S delivers through its A&A protocol, but using calisthenics so that it's a bit more specific to squats and push ups.

check this: Pushup Experiment Results

 

[Deleted member 5559]

So, every day, you do burpees in a :20 on, :40 off format for 10 minutes, and then you do 10 alternating singles in the two-handed doorknob pistol.

=>burpees (20s on 20 off), 10 times
=> 1 OAOL PU ES superseted with 1 pistol ES
=> 2 OAOL PU ES superseted with 2 pistol ES
=> 3 OAOL PU ES superseted with 3 pistol ES

The closest bodyweight movement to a kettlebell swing is a broad jump isn't it?

I'm in agreement with these ideas.

10x 20:40 burpees, tuck jump, split jump, or squat jump, etc
10x1/1 most difficult push-up you can perform superset with most difficult pistol you can perform

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa, the 20/40 thing is a guesstimate for training in the A + A style. Ideally, you start by doing 20 on and 40 off, you wear the HRM, and eventually you wean yourself away from both the clock and the HRM and learn to do A + A training by feel.

-S-

Steve, I've been doing some research online on A+A training, and it seems some sources recommend 10-20 secs of max work, coupled with 90-120 secs of rest (where ideally the HR reaches around 120). 8-12 total sets of that.

This is why I'm confused by the 1:1 and 1:2 work:rest ratios. I thought I should be aiming for 1:6 or so no? What am I thinking of then?

I'm in agreement with these ideas.

10x 20:40 burpees, tuck jump, split jump, or squat jump, etc
10x1/1 most difficult push-up you can perform superset with most difficult pistol you can perform

Now, I know the S&S swings are A+A. However, the TGUs aren't correct? The TUT is much longer.

If I'm only interested in the cardiovascular benefits and higher conditioning from S&S, then perhaps I only need to be doing the burpees and not the slow OAPUs/Pistols that are meant to simulate the TGU. Is that logic about right?

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I was thinking the 1:2 would be better just because of the rpm of the movements in comparison to swings for the conditioning aspect. If only trying to improve power development, a longer rest would be better.

If all you want is bodyweight conditioning, it's hard to do better than burpees on the minute. Work up to a max rpm then do 3 minutes @ 75% of that. Or do 10 minutes at 30% and progress to 10 minutes at 60% of your max reps. You could also do breathing ladder burpees.

 

[Steve Freides]

@aciampa?

You know, I have a pretty simple, maybe too simple, concept of A + A training - it means "stay out of the red zone." If you're doing that, you're probably OK.

1:1 work:rest? No. But 10 kettlebells swings on the minute means about 15 seconds work and 45 seconds rest. And we have to put "work" in quotation marks because it can mean so many things. To use myself as an example, I love to give a lot of effort on a set of swings; nothing makes me happier than 10 swings, 2h, with a 40 kg bell and really going at it hard. When I'm doing something like that, and the clock comes around to the minute, and I don't feel ready, I just wait longer.

One thing I said earlier today (in this thread? or another?) was that ideally you start with a HRM and a clock, and you wean yourself off both over time. I think that's the right idea, so no hard-and-fast rule about work-to-rest ratios.

Interesting reading from @CMarker here:

How Tabata Really Works: What the Research Says

If you're going really hard at it, and you're going to do it for some length of time, then yes, I think 1:6 might make sense. But there are so many variables that it's really tough to say.

E.g., I have been known to plan a swing workout, get part of the way through it, feel like the next set would put me in the red zone, and simply walk away and come back 5-10 minutes later. Am I doing A+A training? Beats the heck out of me, but I feel like I'm trying to keep to the spirit of it, which is

Exercise at an intensity level that, if continued, would put one in the red zone, but stopped short of that length of time, and followed by sufficient rest to do it again and again for some workout-like length of time.

Hopefully the above ramble doesn't add to your confusion.

-S-

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I imagine it would be different for everyone too. We all recharge our energy systems at a little different rate I suppose. Ideally, feeling it like Steve says is the A answer but without it, 1:5 I think is a good start for A+A for anyone. As a person progresses 1:3 might still be A+A. Also, the load would dictate the appropriate ratio as well. Kenneth Jay was really big on alternating 1:1 with lighter weights for VO2 max training which would be more equivalent to 1:2 or 1:3 for bilateral movements like burpees.

I'm not familiar with how Al develops his protocols but I would think it would start with some HR monitoring to see what work:rest ratios get into a zone at certain loads for a sample of folks. It's probably best to use a HRM like @Steve Freides suggested and figure out what RPM of burpees gets, and keeps, you in that MAF zone and then add progressively add volume over time and increase RPMs as necessary to keep in the zone.

 

[pet']

Hello,

If all you want is bodyweight conditioning, it's hard to do better than burpees on the minute. Work up to a max rpm then do 3 minutes @ 75% of that. Or do 10 minutes at 30% and progress to 10 minutes at 60% of your max reps. You could also do breathing ladder burpees.

My Tabata version is on the following frame : 25s on / 10 off, 10 times. This really go on the red zone. In my above post I slowed it down to keep the "swing spirit", meaning avoiding red zone.

In terms conditioning, I really feel both work, but different way.

Burpee conditioning seems to be less sustainable than swing conditioning

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Al Ciampa]

@aciampa?

Yes?

From what I gather skimming this thread, here's my contribution:

S&S is an example of A+A, but not the other way around. A+A is a much longer session. Also, the sets in S&S can get toward the longer side of where you'd like to be. Moreover, there is (should be) no fixed work:rest ratio, as you will need more recovery later in the session.

That said, I personally work some of my lighter-moderately loaded sessions in an "on the minute" fashion, so 11-12sec on, the remainder of the minute off. But this is usually when I am checking the box, or feeling rushed in my day.

 

[Harry Westgate]

@aciampa it'd be interesting to hear if you might have any suggestions/thoughts if it's even possible to create an effective A+A workout/plan using only bodyweight exercises?

 

[Al Ciampa]

@aciampa it'd be interesting to hear if you might have any suggestions/thoughts if it's even possible to create an effective A+A workout/plan using only bodyweight exercises?

Harry, A+A is only (most) effective with high power movements... sprints seem the only option here.

 

[Harry Westgate]

@aciampa noted. thank you!

 

[D-Rock]

@John Kowalski I was just about to post my pushups thread but you found it =)

I believe he wants similar adaptations in general fitness and work capacity that S&S delivers

What becomes your swing for bodyweight only?

But the problem is that you're lacking the ballistic component

For the sake of discussion, if the goal is similar outcomes and not a duplicate program, do we actually need a mimicked swing and a ballistic move if whatever is chosen leads to conditioning and strength?

However, I do understand that the ballistic nature of the swing and the pattern lends itself uniquely well to high volume.

 

[Tarzan]

There's some good ideas in this thread for the explosive phase of the training. Maybe if a some progressive aspect were included it would be a reasonable alternative to the S&S swings. The hip hinge aspect would be hard to replicate with just bodyweight but the explosiveness is easy to implement.

Maybe some simple boxing or kickboxing training moves could be used.

Early progression could be simple rising uppercuts, go into a half squat and as you come up swing an uppercut, then alternate sides.
1 Move on to combinations ie rising uppercut with the right, followed by a left hook. Rinse repeat on the left.
2 Rising uppercut with the right, left hook, right cross. repeat on the left
3 Two consecutive rising uppercuts, left hook, right cross

If you want to include more power development in the hips you could include some martial arts training moves
1 deep squats
2 squat Mae Geri alternate kicking legs after each squat
3 For advanced trainers & robots - jumping squat Mea Geri

Martial arts and boxing seems to have all the tools, just no-one's put the pieces together to temper them into an A&A style workout and create a progressive format that will work for a broad cross section of people.

The full body tension lift to approximate the TGU would need a different approach. Sanchin Kata or some modern version thereof could be adapted to create a slow high tension set of manoeuvres that would target the whole body.

 

[Tarzan]

One of the better examples of a squat Mae Geri I found after a quick look on youtube. We did literally millions of these when I did Karate, maybe if we did them in an A&A style we could have benefited a lot more from them.


We did ours somewhat more like a pistol squat and we were expected to have our knee (on the kicking leg) up near our chest well before we stood all the way up.

 

[pet']

Hello,

If I remember well (so it is to be checked), in one of her article, @Karen Smith explained than she can maintain her results in DL, swings, GU and presses, only by doing GTG with push ups / hspu and pistols and some hanging leg rises.

Reaching the red zone from time to time thanks to HITT is IMO a good supplement.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[pet']

Hello,

Maybe a continuous hindu push ups during 5 to 7 minutes (so without rest). At the end of the move, one can get up completely with a squat.

Just an idea.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[John Kowalski]

Harry, A+A is only (most) effective with high power movements... sprints seem the only option here.

There's a whole thread on breaking muscle written by Craig Marker on antiglycolytic training for crossfit, they used it for variety of exercises, so why wouldn't it work for calisthenics? I'm also wondering if pull ups pyramid training is considered as antiglycolytic?

 

[D-Rock]

Good point @John Kowalski. Although there might be a few different effects here. Meaning A+A with a big full body power move like S&S, sprints, etc. may give you endurance, GPP, work capacity.

Other moves can be done in a manner like mentioned in the Craig Marker article, but give a different effect. A less full body move may not give you the GPP but still help you improve on that specific move. Much like my pushups thread mentioned earlier. Granted that was a very short trial run, but I didn't notice any work capacity or GPP benefits. I did specifically improve my pushups however.

The protocol in the article had both these elements.

If we are looking for something to yield the outcomes of S&S, I think the key here would be to choose an exercise (or succession/combination of exercises) that tax enough of body to yield a systemic response.

As to whether pyramid pullups is antiglycolytic, it depends on how high up the pyramid you go and how long you rest in between. A+A simply means working predominately the alactic-aerobic systems and anti-glycolytic means minimizing the glycolytic pathway to an extent. I think multiple set-ups can fit this mold. There is even an older thread that Pavel had commented on that his Drop and Give Me 100 program was in the anti-glycolytic category. Pyramids done Strongfirst style with lower reps and decent rests would be antiglycolytic. Whether pyramid pullups would yield an effect like S&S is another matter entirely.

"Drop & Give me a 100" Results

JMHO

 

[Anna C]

Although there might be a few different effects here. Meaning A+A with a big full body power move like S&S, sprints, etc. may give you endurance, GPP, work capacity.

Other moves can be done in a manner like mentioned in the Craig Marker article, but give a different effect. A less full body move may not give you the GPP but still help you improve on that specific move. Much like my pushups thread mentioned earlier. Granted that was a very short trial run, but I didn't notice any work capacity or GPP benefits. I did specifically improve my pushups however.

The protocol in the article had both these elements.

If we are looking for something to yield the outcomes of S&S, I think the key here would be to choose an exercise (or succession/combination of exercises) that tax enough of body to yield a systemic response.

As to whether pyramid pullups is antiglycolytic, it depends on how high up the pyramid you go and how long you rest in between. A+A simply means working predominately the alactic-aerobic systems and anti-glycolytic means minimizing the glycolytic pathway to an extent. I think multiple set-ups can fit this mold. There is even an older thread that Pavel had commented on that his Drop and Give Me 100 program was in the anti-glycolytic category. Pyramids done Strongfirst style with lower reps and decent rests would be antiglycolytic. Whether pyramid pullups would yield an effect like S&S is another matter entirely.

YES to all this! Looks to me like a clear understanding and good conclusions, all very well stated.