Bodyweight Calisthenics in S&S format?

[John Kowalski]

Good point @John Kowalski.
As to whether pyramid pullups is antiglycolytic, it depends on how high up the pyramid you go and how long you rest in between. A+A simply means working predominately the alactic-aerobic systems and anti-glycolytic means minimizing the glycolytic pathway to an extent. I think multiple set-ups can fit this mold. There is even an older thread that Pavel had commented on that his Drop and Give Me 100 program was in the anti-glycolytic category. Pyramids done Strongfirst style with lower reps and decent rests would be antiglycolytic. Whether pyramid pullups would yield an effect like S&S is another matter entirely.
JMHO

Actually your push up experiment reminds me a "Russian Bear" program, which is considered as glycolytic. Think about it: high volume, short rests (30-90s) and low reps (let's say that 10 falls into low rep category). The only difference is that 10 reps of push ups was a very submaximal effort for you, and RB calls for heavy 5 reps. The pyramids would be very similar: low reps, high volume, and short rest periods. Do you remember how long were your rests between sets during the push up experiment?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@John Kowalski

high volume, short rests (30-90s) and low reps

You can make kind of A+A using high reps (max -1) with a normal pace (1s up - 1s down, no lock, full ROM), and 25 - 30s rest between sets, 5 sets.

It works well. Plus you can "superset" : pull up / push up (for instance). you rest only after a "couple" pull up / push up. You do it 4 to 5 times.

I did that 3 times a week for a long run. It works in terms of muscular endurance (and a significant but not maximized of max strength).

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[305pelusa]

http://totalperformancesports.com/anaerobic-alactic-conditioning-when-less-is-more/

Wanted to post this simple article of alactic anaerobic conditioning. A fast summary:
- 8-20 secs of work (stick to higher end for capacity, lower end for power). Vital to work as hard as possible in this window
-90-120 secs of rest (alternatively, allow HR to return to 120)
-8-12 sets. It does not even have to be the same exercise.

He gives some examples. I changed them slightly for this circuit that might be more in tune with my and OP's goals:
Sets of 20 secs of work, as many reps as possible in that window. Rest 90-120 secs after each exercise:

1) Pushups
2) Pullups
3) Squat Jumps

Repeat 3-4 times for a total of 9-12 sets. At most, this would take just under 30 min, and at least 17 min. That seems pretty in-tune with S&S in general too so.

I rather like this kind of conditioning, I think it could be more specific to calisthenics and actually develop some strength. You can just plug whatever exercise you want to improve in, so you'll both get general A+A benefits as well as strength in the given exercise.

Cheers.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@305pelusa
I tried this type of training with push ups and pull ups.

Maybe you do not have that problem (I hope so !) but when I do pull ups or push ups "AMRAP", I tend to reduce ROM or doing "butterfly pull ups" (like in crossfit). Indeed, doing that make the circuit more "cardio". A full ROM and a strict move imply to do it slower so you "lose" the cardio effect. That being said, maybe I am some kind of anormal creature !

However, I admit that it works terrific with moves like burpees or mountain climbers !

For a "S&S like" bodyweight conditioning, I would go for two options:
=> ladder of OAOL PU / pistol (the max ladder is defined by the max rep you can do in a row with the harder variation you can do)
=> 4 or 5 sets of a pure form move, with "max reps - 1" (to avoid failure), and only 25 - 30s between sets. Naturally, you will do less rep from a set to another. You can do that for the moves and variation you want (pull ups, chin ups, push ups, abs, squat...) It gives both conditioning and strength.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[D-Rock]

@John Kowalski I would respectfully contend that Russian Bear and what I tried to do were quite different. 80% of max weight is quite different than staying far away from my rep max on pushups, which are quite light for me. That would change the nature of the program IMHO.

Also, the intentions were different. Russian Bear is aimed at building cumulative fatigue, ending at technical failure. I was trying my best for COMPLETE recovery in between sets. Yes, both are high volume though.

To answer your questions on rest periods, it was highly variable between sessions and even within the same session. I did not allow my next set to begin until my heart rate got back down to 90. I know heart rate isn't necessarily a perfect thing to go by, but it was my simple way of attaching a hard objective rule to my experiment rather than a subjective "I feel good enough to go again". My curiosity was if my recovery times in between sets would naturally decrease without FORCING the issue, and it did. In general my rest periods were 3-5 minutes in the beginning and 1-3 minutes toward the end of my personal experiment. I was curious what would happen with those constraints applied

Rest periods are interesting. What is glycolytic for me may be aerobic for a highly conditioned elite athlete. What is a short rest for me may be a long rest for an elite athlete. This article touches on that.
The Hybrid Power Conditioning Program

In regards to the pyramids, I still think they can be made glycolytic or anti-glycolytic, it depends. Complete recovery and not going too high up the pyramid would minimize the glycolytic system. However, you can definitely make it glycolytic by rushing the rest periods if you like!

 

[John Kowalski]

@John Kowalski I would respectfully contend that Russian Bear and what I tried to do were quite different. 80% of max weight is quite different than staying far away from my rep max on pushups, which are quite light for me. That would change the nature of the program IMHO.

you are right, I'm currently trying to improve my numbers in pull ups and push ups as they went terribly low. Low intensity, frequent sessions, I do many sets of 1-5 reps, pyramids etc. I go by a feel, but my heartrate usually stays about 120-140 when I occasionally check. It's been almost 5 weeks now and I feel some improvements in my general wellbeing - especially the sleep, it's much easier to fall asleep now. I'm gonna do a test at the end of the month, I guess my numbers will improve.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@John Kowalski
Did you consider the fighter pull up program ?

As it contains various sets, you can use the rest between them to make this training a conditioning one.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[John Kowalski]

Hello,

@John Kowalski
Did you consider the fighter pull up program ?

I do something similar btw, are the rests between sets given in this program or you just rest as much as needed?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@John Kowalski
Unfortunately, rest is not given by the program. It is supposed to be minimal (because here we want to get a conditioning workout) but it has to be enough to prevent failure.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[D-Rock]

I'm currently trying to improve my numbers in pull ups and push ups as they went terribly low.

Same!

It's been almost 5 weeks now and I feel some improvements in my general wellbeing - especially the sleep, it's much easier to fall asleep now.

Interesting!

I'm gonna do a test at the end of the month, I guess my numbers will improve.

I hope so, good luck! I'd like to hear your progress

 

[John Kowalski]

I hope so, good luck! I'd like to hear your progress

For about 6 months I’ve been experimenting with HIT type of training (1 set to failure type of protocols), low volume, infrequent (1x week). My body composition didn’t change, but I felt like I lost some strength. I was sure that it has to be my spinal condition (Scheuermann’s kyphosis), but then I started digging the net and found some articles about anti-glycolytic training, the theory about glycolytic loads killing mitochondria got my attention (HIT would be considered as glycolytic). I decided to give it a try for at least a month to see if my strength would improve. At this point I’m still not sure if the progress I made is caused by training method or the spinal condition improved, but I will probably keep on experimenting anyway.

Training volume:
pull ups: 2x a week, about 10-20 reps per session, push ups and bw squats: 2x a week, about 30-50 reps per session. My workouts were not scheduled, but I used to train every move 2x a week and took a day off 1-2x a week. Pull ups and push ups on separate days, sometimes I did push ups and squats together. Never did more than 5 reps per set. During my rests I would walk or do some light exercises like loaded carry, sled drag, crawling etc. The sessions were usually short, somewhere from 10 to 30 minutes. I got sore only once from doing too much volume of squats. I usually totaled about 30-50 reps of each exercise per session. I also checked my HR from time to time to see if the “economy of movement” improves and it did - at the beginning I had to be careful not to push myself too hard, my hr would sometimes race over 150, but near the end of the experiment it would be actually hard if I wanted to keep my HR elevated at some specific level - I would have to put my muscles to complete exhaustion to reach higher heart rates (which I didn’t…). The rests between sets decreased early on, I feel fine in general. Today I did my test: max pull ups, 20 minutes rest, max push ups, 20 minutes rest and then max squats.

Chin ups, before: 3 (the worst since the beginning of my training “career”), I actually broke that “record” during one of my training sessions btw )
after: 10

Push ups, before: 10 (also the worst since the beginning of my training “career”, at this point I’m still not sure if it’s caused by bad training methods or my spinal condition),
after: 14 (my arms were shot after pull ups, I’m gonna do another test after 2 days off)

Squats, I don’t know what my max was, but my legs would usually quit at about 30 reps, it didn’t improve.

 

[pet']

Hello,

A while ago, I used to do a bodyweight only routine. I did not know at the time at was "anti-glycolytic". However, with these threads on SF, some researches and my feeling, it matched pretty well.

5 sets of maximum repetitions - 1 (to avoid failure) and 25s rest between sets (using a timer) for : pull up, elevated push up, dips, dragon flags
3 sets for pistol squats (ES).

I did this routine 3 times a week. I added stretching on an everyday basis.

Then, I switched for a twice a week approach. This gave me more rest.

My body composition changed : I was more "ripped", and was globally a bit "bigger". I admit I was really skinny before I began. I was far more stronger. This lead me to a pull up with 40 kg added, a pistol with 28 added.

It also drastically improved my conditioning (more or less like S&S). However sessions were longer. Warm-up + training + stretching = 1h.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[D-Rock]

@John Kowalski that is a really great increase. That's 40% on your pushups and you more that tripled your pullups! You were doing this around 6 weeks if I remember correctly, right? Are you going to have another go at the cycle or try something else?

@pet' just a little clarification, did you cycle through the movements (pushups then pullups then squats etc.) or did you get all 5 sets of a movement done in a row (5 sets of pullups with 25 seconds rest in between, then moving onto 5 sets of pushups)? Was this a short term program, like only a few weeks, or did you stick with it awhile? Was this your conditioning workout a couple times a week while you did other strength training the rest if the week? Was maximum reps to failure - 1 technical failure or complete failure? Thank you in advance!

 

[pet']

Hello,

@D-Rock

did you get all 5 sets of a movement done in a row (5 sets of pullups with 25 seconds rest in between, then moving onto 5 sets of pushups)?

Exactly that !

Was this a short term program, like only a few weeks, or did you stick with it awhile?

I used this program for months. However, some folks I know used it for years.

Was this your conditioning workout a couple times a week while you did other strength training the rest if the week?

At the begining, it was the only one. Then, I added 100 swings (not so heavy) on my rest days. To a certain extent, I am sure it helps to progress more or less the linear way.

Indeed, the idea is to make 1 or 2 (or more if can) reps for an exercise, each session.
Example:
Session 1: pull up : 3 / push up : 3
Session 2: pull up : 4 / push up : 3
Session 3: pull up : 4 / push up : 4

Was maximum reps to failure - 1 technical failure or complete failure?

It depends. When I wanted to push myself a little, it was "complete - 1". On a cruise-speed, it was "technical - 1".

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[D-Rock]

Exactly that !

Did you rest any extra between movements (after 5 sets of pushups, did you rest more before moving onto 5 sets of pullups, or was it still 25s?)

This sounds pretty intense with only 25s rest, I would be toast! Not sure if I would burn out on this. Although technical failure - 1 would help me as opposed to complete failure- 1. I burn out so easily on complete failure - 1.

Indeed, the idea is to make 1 or 2 (or more if can) reps for an exercise, each session.
Example:
Session 1: pull up : 3 / push up : 3
Session 2: pull up : 4 / push up : 3
Session 3: pull up : 4 / push up : 4

I am a little confused because if the goal is to shoot for some sort of maximum reps, I'm not sure if I can control a linear progression. When I've tried such programs before, one day my maximum reps would majorly increase, then the next session possibly drop a few. It would fluctuate. Also, would the linear increase be possible after sticking to it for months or years?

Thank you again for the details. I am actually curious to try such a program in the future!

 

[pet']

Hello,

Did you rest any extra between movements

Ah yes, I forgot to specify that, my bad. Yes, I rested 2 minutes.

This sounds pretty intense with only 25s rest, I would be toast!

You can take longer rest if you want. In that case, a progression would be : maintain your reps, but reduce rest between the set. Once you get comfortable with the rep / set frame, start adding a few reps.

Yes it is intense, but it does not put you "in the red" like a HIIT would do. It is closer to an S&S frame actually.

I'm not sure if I can control a linear progression

Nohting obliges you to "break records" session after session. By the way, that is impossible or near impossible. Sometimes, it is good to simply maintain the reps you are capable of for a while, or even doing a bit less. Then, you can go higher reps, because you are rested. I precise here, that you are not obliged (or even supposed) to add 1 rep at each set.
Example : 2 2 2 2 2 would become 3 2 2 2 2 The total rep counts.

At the beginning, you progress faster. Then, you keep progressing, but a bit slower. That is normal.

Although technical failure - 1 would help me as opposed to complete failure- 1. I burn out so easily on complete failure - 1

That is why, very often, I went for technical - 1.

"Technical - 1" is sustainable, on a 2 - 3 times a week.

Thank you again for the details. I am actually curious to try such a program in the future!

You are welcome.

Tell me how it goes if you try this !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[John Kowalski]

@John Kowalski that is a really great increase. That's 40% on your pushups and you more that tripled your pullups! You were doing this around 6 weeks if I remember correctly, right? Are you going to have another go at the cycle or try something else?

I just retested my push ups in a more fresh state, I did 20 reps, and by push ups I mean full ROM, chest to the floor, full extension at the top etc. the same for pull ups - full lock out, controled movement etc. The cycle lasted 6 weeks. Yeah, the increase in pull ups is amazing, I knew that I improved because I did sets of 4 once or twice during my trainings. I actually expected something like 6-7 reps. That’s why I will continue with the program for another month, but with slight changes. I’ll try to combine the exercises in a single session, so that I’ll limit my work days to 3-4. For pull ups I’ll stick to ladders, but this time with a bit more total volume, something like 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1 etc. to keep the total volume somewhere about 20-30 reps (which is about 10 reps increase) and limit the sets to no more than 5 reps. For push ups I’ll do more reps - somewhere between 5-10 reps per set, and I’ll see how much volume I could possibly tolerate without getting tired. For squats I’ll also try higher reps - something like 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps to see if it helps. I’m also gonna add some rowing and vertical press to balance out the work. After a month I’ll do the same test and if it improves again - then I’ll experiment with decreasing the number of workouts - instead of training each exercise twice a week, I’ll train it “only” once and we’ll see how it goes. Actually I believe that the volume of 2 sessions a week per exercise might be a key to my pull ups increase - I still got quite good volume but also plenty of rest! That’s why now I want to condense my workouts to get more full days of complete rest, and even if I combined all 3 exercises in one session, the workout is still gonna be short anyway. If you are still interested in results, I’ll post them here.
Regards.

 

[Harry Westgate]

I can't believe I'd forgotten to mention this already...

Back in 2014 I built up to doing 50 consecutive pistols in a row per leg, and I remember thinking at the time once I'd made it past 20/30 reps that I'd forgotten what it felt like to have tired legs when not doing pistols. In other words, if you want work capacity, then you could do a great deal worse than being comfortable doing 20+ pistols.

Now, I must admit that I wasn't very conservative with building up to this, in other words, I pushed through the burn. It took me if I recall correctly 13 weeks to hit 50 and it wasn't remotely fun (it was fun having never-quit legs, but not fun doing that many pistols). As such, if I was to ever return to training like this, I'd be more conservative and not rush to get to a certain number of reps. For example getting to the point where the 20-30 rep range is easy before pushing into the 40s.

The programme I followed is here:

How to Program Your Way to 50 Consecutive Pistol Squats

Again, regarding long-term sustainability of this kind of training, I'd avoid any kind of burn. Put it this way, if one could do 25 pistols per leg without breaking a sweat, then they're bound to be pretty damn fit and strong.

Simultaneously train one arm pushups like this, and I think you'd develop some outstanding general endurance.

Note that in the article Eric mentions cutting back on the days spent training once the reps start climbing. I did exactly this. By the end I was training twice per week, and I believe my final week was 40 reps on Monday and then 50 on Thursday. I think a good all-around approach could be to spend four days training per week; two pistol days and two OAPU days. A sample week could be:

Monday: Pistol (light - meaning fewer reps than heavy)
Tuesday: OAPU (light)
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Pistol (heavy)
Friday: OAPU (heavy)
Saturday: Off
Sunday: Off

Hmm... Maybe some self-experimentation will be in order once I hit Simple...

Food for thought for everyone .

Harry

 

[D-Rock]

Tell me how it goes if you try this !

Definitely, when it comes time to adjust my program later in the year I'll PM you or start a new thread!

@John Kowalski even better results!

If you are still interested in results

Yes!

Again, regarding long-term sustainability of this kind of training, I'd avoid any kind of burn. Put it this way, if one could do 25 pistols per leg without breaking a sweat, then they're bound to be pretty damn fit and strong.

Kindof what was discussed in this thread Decrease the "burn" in the muscles
Can you up the reps you can do without reaching the burn? In other words, if you always hit the burn at 15 reps, will eventually you be able to reach 25 reps without burning?

 

[Harry Westgate]

@D-Rock I suspect you probably could if you appropriately backed off, added a rep or two, back off again, added an extra few reps, and so on. It's probably just a case of learning at what point one should be backing off and knowing how many reps to add.