Hrungnir
Level 6 Valued Member
Hadn’t seen this addressed yet, but 4kcals is the net energy for protein. 5 kcals is the gross energy, so the inefficiency of protein conversion to energy is already built into the calculation.
Other/Mixed Calorie counting, why include protein as a calorie?
- Thread starter svencandy
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Adachi
Level 6 Valued Member
emphasis, Mine...
I have searched Pubmed and Google Scholar in the past.
And, what I can not find is a trace of how the body handles a complete protein.
I once had a biologist friend of mine who Graduated from UCSD, and he once quipped to me that all proteins can be broken into their component parts. and, I balked at him: are they? if so at what rates? under what circumstances?
I relate this line of inquiry to the problem of the Caloric Bomb Measurement versus the way the Energy pathways actually play out under ketosis.
So, I suppose I'm just saying - we know a bunch of things about nutrition in general, and insofar as the devil is in the details, there's a lot of controversy in the specifics.
I agree
I agree
I agree
I have searched Pubmed and Google Scholar in the past.
And, what I can not find is a trace of how the body handles a complete protein.
I once had a biologist friend of mine who Graduated from UCSD, and he once quipped to me that all proteins can be broken into their component parts. and, I balked at him: are they? if so at what rates? under what circumstances?
He and I went back and forth arguing for a while. Btw He lifts barbells regularly and his Backsquat is around 400lbs squats for sets of 5 (although he's still working on breaking a 500lbs. single after many years, and he's at around 175lbs. body weight, so - I pay him a good deal of deference, in general about lifting and its' constituent areas of concern.) He likes to assert himself when I share that I take in as few carbs as possible, because of the collateral effects. but, I digress.
He and I went back and forth and neither of us found a relatively complete explanation of how the body actually handles proteins and amino. we know a great deal about them, and there's some correlation between the leucine requirement for Muscle Protein Synthesis and other general or body-wide effects. But, nowhere near a complete story, on if how or when the body partitions the delivery of proteins to any cells in particular.
the many possibilities of how the body may handle proteins for repair and/or fuel are very poorly mapped. and many specific hypotheses are very thinly fueled by small amounts of factual information; too little to propel or sustain strong positions on what that means that someone should do.
I relate this line of inquiry to the problem of the Caloric Bomb Measurement versus the way the Energy pathways actually play out under ketosis.
the energy amounts possible in the caloric bomb measurement may be a unique value from the number of phosphors that may be delivered as ATP Phase 2.
for example, during ketosis, there are a certain number of ketones that are excreted as waste as bad breath and funny-smelling pee. that is a dose of phosphors that were not delivered as fuel to any storage form in the body, thereby cutting the labeled calorie measurement that would be possible to some lower fraction value.
the possibility of fuel delivery diverges from the actual. We are very unclearly aware of many of the possibilities of how the body may handle proteins and their component parts, but we aren't very close to an accurate map of how the body actually handles them in many specific cases.
So, I suppose I'm just saying - we know a bunch of things about nutrition in general, and insofar as the devil is in the details, there's a lot of controversy in the specifics.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
This makes me think of Peter Attia's rule:
If you can't deadlift your bodyweight for 10 reps, you don't need to worry about any of this
Said originally in reference to supplements, but applies equally well to the complex biochemistry of amino acids.
Adachi
Level 6 Valued Member
I can deadlift my body weight for 10, and I still don't need to worry about any of this.
I heard this line before:
how much does a race car driver need to know about how an engine works?
Enough to win, and no more.
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watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
@svencandy Regarding your original question, it's a very good question, and I don't think it has been addressed directly (at least from what I saw by browsing quickly through the thread). The short answer is that when you eat 150 g of proteins, you don't use the full 150 g to build new (emphasis on "new") lean mass (tissues that include proteins in your body). If you could do that, of course, you would not count "150 g of proteins = 600 Cal". However, if you're lucky, you can add a few grams of lean mass a day. For example, 10 grams of new muscles a day is 8 pounds a year. That would be a very nice result for anyone running a hypertrophy program. And it's even worse than it looks with regard to energy balance, as 10 g of muscles includes about 2 g of proteins only. Muscles are mostly water.
So why do we need so much protein for hypertrophy? The reason is that we may think of the body as a solid fixed structure, but it's not. The body is always destroying itself and rebuilding. In most processes in the body, we have a dynamic equilibrium. Things get built and destroyed at the same time. You gain muscle when you build just a bit more than you destroy. Due to the way these things work, you will need a surplus of proteins to build new muscles, but you need much more than what is needed to increase your mass by the amount you will grow. Another fact that is very surprising is that it is estimated that at least between 300 and 400g of proteins is destroyed, and then rebuilt, every day. That really dwarfs the synthesis of new, additional, tissue.
Besides muscles, you also use proteins for hair, skin, etc... So, strictly speaking, you could deduct a few grams of my hypothetical 150 g of proteins in the calories accounting. However, the whole calories balance equation is so approximative unless you are in a very rigorous lab setting, that it doesn't matter in the end. This could also be included in what is called "basal" metabolism, i.e. the calories you use even when you don't do any activity.
The result of the remaining processes that handle the balance from our initial 150g are what provide the 4 Calories/g figure. Note that it's not necessarily the "same" amino acids that are consumed in a given meal that will be "burned" and produce energy. It's more of a balance between many processes that occur in the body, with a net elimination of a quantity of amino acids that is a very large fraction of the amount you eat each day.
So why do we need so much protein for hypertrophy? The reason is that we may think of the body as a solid fixed structure, but it's not. The body is always destroying itself and rebuilding. In most processes in the body, we have a dynamic equilibrium. Things get built and destroyed at the same time. You gain muscle when you build just a bit more than you destroy. Due to the way these things work, you will need a surplus of proteins to build new muscles, but you need much more than what is needed to increase your mass by the amount you will grow. Another fact that is very surprising is that it is estimated that at least between 300 and 400g of proteins is destroyed, and then rebuilt, every day. That really dwarfs the synthesis of new, additional, tissue.
Besides muscles, you also use proteins for hair, skin, etc... So, strictly speaking, you could deduct a few grams of my hypothetical 150 g of proteins in the calories accounting. However, the whole calories balance equation is so approximative unless you are in a very rigorous lab setting, that it doesn't matter in the end. This could also be included in what is called "basal" metabolism, i.e. the calories you use even when you don't do any activity.
The result of the remaining processes that handle the balance from our initial 150g are what provide the 4 Calories/g figure. Note that it's not necessarily the "same" amino acids that are consumed in a given meal that will be "burned" and produce energy. It's more of a balance between many processes that occur in the body, with a net elimination of a quantity of amino acids that is a very large fraction of the amount you eat each day.
silveraw
Level 8 Valued Member
The range for performance is .8-1.5g per lb bodyweight. If you have a lot of excess adipose tissue, use estimated LBM instead of bodyweight.
It is really hard to overeat protein.
silveraw
Level 8 Valued Member
Digestion takes a protein and breaks it down into individual amino acids... I think that is what he was trying to say. Since obviously you don't eat steak and then your body takes steak and plops it in to your shoulder muscles so you now have muscles made out of sirloin (at the very least it would be a butt).
For sure. MPS gets all the research... Because it is easy to measure. But minimizing Muscle Protein Degradation is the other side of the equation and may account for why eating more than the "Max" for MPS results in more muscle growth. So yeah, 20-30g of protein per meal may maximize MPS... But you will grow more muscle if you double it.
Dr Norton has a ton of videos ranting on this if you want to learn more!
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
One reason I don't waste any mental bandwidth on trying to micromanage protein metabolism (other than just eating enough protein and paying attention to caloric deficit/surplus) is that hypertrophy is not linear, but episodic.
As I'm sure anyone who is an Intermediate / 5+ years of lifting will probably also share, the gainz aren't regular.
They're irregular.
Months can go by without much muscle gain, and then suddenly you'll gain 2 lbs of muscle in 1 month.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I don’t gain ANY muscle by serendipity
Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
This was more of a numerical example to illustrate that there is indeed no simple equation between amount of proteins consumed and muscles built. I'm not arguing that gains will be linear. I was just answering the original question:
from a physiology standpoint to show that you don't get lean mass in any proportion close to what you eat protein-wise. Or in other words, only an insignificant portion of the proteins you eat will eventually end up in new muscles. A lot of it will eventually be used as fuel. As to optimizing muscle growth, that's not really my cup of tea either, so I cannot really comment on what is true and what is purely supplement marketing material. My guess is that there is a lot of the second type of information on the Web.
silveraw
Level 8 Valued Member
Mindset.
Gypsyplumber
Level 7 Valued Member
I stopped counting calories and macros and have found much better health as well as much better results physically by paying more attention to eating foods that I know my body can easily Absorb as nutrients. I fast and then I eat until full and satiated and I’ve maintained an acceptable body fat, I’ve stayed at about 167lbs and I feel amazing. I eat mostly meat, a small serving of liver 5-7 days a week… eggs , raw butter, cod liver oil and fruit, occasionally potato’s . Lots of ribeyes and ground beef. Hardly any veggies no grains. I also try and get some fermented foods like kefir, sauerkraut, and apple cider vinegar. Ultimately the body doesn’t need carbs to survive, this has been proven by many people who thrive on carnivore diets, the fact that we can make glucose (from
Fat and amino acids) is pretty interesting to me. I always try to get lots of protein and lots of fat and I feel optimal.
WxHerk
Level 8 Valued Member
Truth.
Meet your protein requirements and your protein will take care of you. Just keep showing up.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I dunno man....my biceps finally grew after months of work and no results.
Nothing else changed.
I think it's because of World Cup.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Not pasteurized.
Gypsyplumber
Level 7 Valued Member
Not pasturized. Many are scared of it but pasteurization process kills some of the nutrients and can be the reason why some people can’t handle dairy. It’s also been shown to help prevent allergies as well as asthma (something I suffered from for years)
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Oh, duh.
I thought maybe it was just a reference to eating sticks of butter.
I've known hardcore ketos into that.