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Can someone summarize what Q&D, S&S, and AXE are meant to accomplish? What end state is each designed to bring you to?

Wifi said:
Where would aerobic LSD training fall in? My understanding is that it is a form of slow twitch training.
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I don't thing LSD does anything relevant to any kind of fiber.
Whatever stress is there on the muscles - it is insignificant.
LSD is aerobic training. Or at least it should be. The biggest benefit would be increased heart stroke volume ( in theory ), and increased blood flow. Also, contracting muscles will surve as an additional pump, aiding in blood return to the heart.
I think, viewing LSD from a standpoint of muscle fibers is wrong.
As far as I remember - the best LSD is skiing. Lower heart rate, longer time. Bycicle will be good as well, if the tempo is moderate. Waking on the incline threadmill.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
I don't thing LSD does anything relevant to any kind of fiber.
Whatever stress is there on the muscles - it is insignificant.
LSD is aerobic training. Or at least it should be. The biggest benefit would be increased heart stroke volume ( in theory ), and increased blood flow. Also, contracting muscles will surve as an additional pump, aiding in blood return to the heart.
I think, viewing LSD from a standpoint of muscle fibers is wrong.
As far as I remember - the best LSD is skiing. Lower heart rate, longer time. Bycicle will be good as well, if the tempo is moderate. Waking on the incline threadmill.
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Doesn't LSD, at least on its own, shift the fibers to a slow type?

There seems to be lots of research on life long endurance athletes. When they age they really have no fast twitch fibers at all, worse than sedentary people of similar age, not to mention ones with resistance training background.
 
Apologies for messing up the thread but I want to say that for me at this fairly late point in life (57) the results are not al that matter, but they do give a good guide that I am not totally screwing things up. I like to train a variety of methods and generally every day. It some ways it is more or less mountain climbing - the joy is in the moment, rising to the challenge. At the moment I have 3 main aspects to the daily session. After a brief 5 minute warm up which is mostly clubs and dynamic stretching;
1 SteveJusta daily singles - 4 singles each squat, bench, dead
2 30 mins intervals rotating through rowing, bike, running (one per day)
3 either 10 sets of HEAVY swings EMOM or 20-30 mins of Iron Cardio
stretch.
Sure it is not optimal (for what?) but I enjoy the process no end.
 
Antti said:
Doesn't LSD, at least on its own, shift the fibers to a slow type?

There seems to be lots of research on life long endurance athletes. When they age they really have no fast twitch fibers at all, worse than sedentary people of similar age, not to mention ones with resistance training background.
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Say it ain’t so….
 
Elite ultra distance runners also spend time training above their AnT. Predominantly utilizing FT fibres. (Along with ST of course)

I’m struggling to see the point here…
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
I don't thing LSD does anything relevant to any kind of fiber.
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I would disagree with this statement, too. The purpose of the Maffetone method and others that have you stay below a threshold and build volume there is to maximally utilize your slow twitch muscle fiber to do a lot of work for a long time. These oxidative fibers primarily utilize oxygen and fatty acids and are packed with mitochondria to produce maximum ATP using those inputs. If your intensity makes you exceed the MAF HR, it's an indication that you're working too hard and therefore recruiting fast twitch fiber and fueling with glycolysis. So you work at MAF HR for many months, and eventually you can do more work (i.e. go faster in your chosen locomotive activity) while still being aerobic and using primarily slow twitch muscle fiber, which is very enduring and efficient.
 
What about the various permutations of hybrid training. If we train heavy lifting and zone 2 maf, do we get both adaptation sets?
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
This is a very interesting question, and a very good thread.
It would also be nice to know, for an average person, non-athlete, what kind of training to stick with.
On the serious side of a funny comment - none of them will improve how good do you look naked, unless you are overweight :) .
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Okay, then I'm out.
 
I dont think you could experience the minor differences in performance, so use the one you enjoy the most or fits your schedule the better. I really enjoy AXE swings because progress is kinda fast and objectively measurable and QD 015 because is efficient. The side effects are going to be similar: explosiveness, grip strength, amazing recovery and will leave you enough time for your beloved ones.
 
stevein7 said:
What about the various permutations of hybrid training. If we train heavy lifting and zone 2 maf, do we get both adaptation sets?
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Yes, most certainly. One only has to look around the forum to see this in many of our members.

You aren’t going to see any WSM contenders who are also serious ultra runners, but there is plenty of open ground between those two extremes…
 
stevein7 said:
What about the various permutations of hybrid training. If we train heavy lifting and zone 2 maf, do we get both adaptation sets?
Click to expand...

I'm stealing a quote from @Derek Toshner on a Facebook thread this morning in answer to a similar question. He said, "I’ve become a HUGE advocate for A+A training (alactic movement improving the aerobic system). Explosive movement / quick lift has an inertia effect on the heart. When you do your 1-5 reps and set it down, HR continues to climb. When HR settles, repeat the effort. The average ends up being Zone 2 cardio, which is what the endurance world thrives on for base building of outstanding capacity. However you recruit strength muscles, so you’re not just building endurance, but also strength. This is what high intense interval training was attempting to do in the 2000’s but failed because it was too glycolytic (acid building). We were never working pure strength or pure endurance, just something in the middle; results were capped. Great endurance athletes, like alpinist Mark Twight, went back to steady state zone 2 because glycolytic a#@ kickers in the gym weren’t the fast track they thought it should’ve been.
I still do some steady zone 2, and some strength grinds with heavy weight, but 80% of my training revolves around A+A. I am still quite strong, and my endurance capacity is better than ever. I feel better than I did in my late 20’s and 30’s, and truly believe I’m more athletic now."

To learn from Derek directly, check out StrongFirst's All-Terrain Conditioning seminar. There are two scheduled for Feb 2024; one in the U.S. and one in Europe. I have a thread about the course here.
 
Anna C said:
I'm stealing a quote from @Derek Toshner on a Facebook thread this morning in answer to a similar question. He said, "I’ve become a HUGE advocate for A+A training (alactic movement improving the aerobic system). Explosive movement / quick lift has an inertia effect on the heart. When you do your 1-5 reps and set it down, HR continues to climb. When HR settles, repeat the effort. The average ends up being Zone 2 cardio, which is what the endurance world thrives on for base building of outstanding capacity. However you recruit strength muscles, so you’re not just building endurance, but also strength. This is what high intense interval training was attempting to do in the 2000’s but failed because it was too glycolytic (acid building). We were never working pure strength or pure endurance, just something in the middle; results were capped. Great endurance athletes, like alpinist Mark Twight, went back to steady state zone 2 because glycolytic a#@ kickers in the gym weren’t the fast track they thought it should’ve been.
I still do some steady zone 2, and some strength grinds with heavy weight, but 80% of my training revolves around A+A. I am still quite strong, and my endurance capacity is better than ever. I feel better than I did in my late 20’s and 30’s, and truly believe I’m more athletic now."

To learn from Derek directly, check out StrongFirst's All-Terrain Conditioning seminar. There are two scheduled for Feb 2024; one in the U.S. and one in Europe. I have a thread about the course here.
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Thank you, Anna. Side note, what do we lose the quickest as we age? Strength? Endurance? No, power and flexibility! Quick lifts done a few times a week paired with some Flexible Steel are some of the best for anti-aging.
 
I made list of some notes to help me choose between those. It is not complete and maybe it is not fully correct

S&S:
  • alactic capacity + body coordination strength adaptations
  • Recommended for beginers until timeless simple
  • Up to 5 times per week, easy to follow.
  • Not interfering with other training
  • Swings, get ups, Goblet Squats
Q&D
  • alactic capacity + glycolytic power energy production adaptations
  • More experienced have better results (recomendet Simple SS)
  • Minimum 2x per week max 4
  • 12 to 30 minutes per session
  • Train fresh, fast first
  • Leave you fresh for sport specific training.
  • Before competition as a minimalist maintaining training when you have to focus on other stuff (technical)
  • Swings, snatches, pushups
KBSF C&J
  • Easy on shoulders
  • More strength focus than Q&D
  • 2x per week, duration to 30 min
  • As a strength and power development during high volume LISS phase
  • Clean and jerks
Iron Cardio ???
  • Clean, press, squat
  • Up to 3x per week
  • Duration 20 to 40 min
AXE ???
  • H2H swings, snatches
  • 20 to 60 min
Other A+A ??? (newsletter examples, classical 5 reps OTM
  • 20 to 60 min
 
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