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Barbell Can Zercher Squats do it all?

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Chase Hines

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This is a really interesting question that I’m excited to see feedback on.

I’ll start by framing it up -

The Zercher Squat, Zercher Carry, KB C&P & KB Carry Variation have made up 99% of my training over the past 18 months.

All the KB & carry stuff has really been GPP. I’m really not pushing the intensity. Just really solid consistent work.

The Zercher Squat is the only movement I’ve really focused on increasing. When I started 18 months ago 185 was brutal. Now I’m pretty comfortable with 275-315.

I’ve deadlifted less than 5 times in the last 18 months but in each of those DL sessions I’ve PR’d.

Here’s my question -

Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?
 
@Chase Hines, I'm fascinated by this idea. Please tell us more about your ZSQ training.
Well there really hasn’t been much to it.

Just consistent simple practice that looks like this -

3 sessions per week
low volume around 10 reps per session
5x2 - 3x3 - 2x1-2-3 - 2x5
5x2 has made up the bulk of the work
always barefoot

I’ve stuck with the load until it feels easy then made fairly large jumps working it in 1 set at time until it makes up the full session.

Jumped from 185 to 225 then from 225 to 275.

Now playing around in the 275-315 range.

Now noticing the need for a weekly “light day” at 225.

That’s really it.

Also - Any previous posture, shoulder, knee “issues” have gone away.
 
Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?

Maybe it is simply, "you got stronger". Zercher went from 185 - 315, or whatever numbers you mentioned. This strength adaptation would carry over to the rest of your life besides just the the zercher, right?

Have you noticed other strength related changes besides the deadlift? What about KB carry' or things like that? Body composition or more hypertrophy or things of that nature.

Same thing happened to me with barbell back squat to deadlift. Also with bench press to overhead KB lifting. I just got stronger. PERIOD. Maybe the same is happening to you and your strength improvements are extending beyond just the deadlift.

Congrats!

Eric
 
Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?
No. But it will help with getting the weight off the floor easier, as zercher squats will help with generating better leg drive in that initial phase as well as getting stronger quads. Might help as well with creating good tension and keep tight abs and lats before starting the lift.
 
The Zercher Squat is the only movement I’ve really focused on increasing. When I started 18 months ago 185 was brutal. Now I’m pretty comfortable with 275-315.

I’ve deadlifted less than 5 times in the last 18 months but in each of those DL sessions I’ve PR’d.
The "No Deadlift" Deadlifift Program

Increasing the Deadlift with Zercher Squats and Not Deadlifting fall in line with the information in this article.

The key to developing Maximum Strength in a movement or sport is to emply exercises that work those muscle with movements that have a similar Strength Curve; that are similar in nature.

With that in mind, let me reiterate information from previous post on this.

Powerlifters

The dogma of many Powerlifter is to perform the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises, as means of getting stronger in them.

While performing the Powerlifts as Training Exercises does increase strength, it does so at the expense of...

Technique

Technique is optimally developed by...

1) Performing Heavy Movements with 85% plus loads for 1 - 2 Repetition Per Set

2) Rest Periods between Sets need to be long enough so that you have completely recovered; around 3 minutes or more of rest between sets.

3) Technique Training need to be preformed first in a Training Program when you are fresh.

4) Once Muscle Fatigue occurs, Stop! Continuing ensures Poor Technique is developed and maintained.

Muscle Fatigue

With each Repetition in an exercise Muscle Fatigue occurs.

As Muscle Fatigue sets in Technique deteriorates with each Repetition.

The Muscle Firing Sequence changes and there is a shift in the Muscle Fiber involvement .

This brings us to the subject of...

How To Increase Maximum Strength and Ensure Technique

How to maintain and improve Technique is noted above.

The key to increasing Maxium Strength in the Powerlifts is with...

1) Exercise that utilize the same muscle group in the Movement.

2) Exercises with a similar Strength Curve

Defining Strength Curves

There are three type of Strength Curves...

a) Ascending Strength Curve

This is where the movement is hard at the bottom and becomes easier as the the bar is pushed or pulled up.

The Powerlifts fall into this catagory: Squat, Bench Press (Pressing Movements), Deadlifts.

b) Descending Strength Curve Movements

This is where the movement is easy at the beginning and get harder the farther it is it moved.

Most Compound Pulling Movement fall into this category: Bent Over Row, Lat Pull Down, Upright Row, Pull Ups, etc.

c) Bell Shaped Strength Curve

This is were the exercise is easy at the beginning, Hard in the middle and easy at the end of the movement.

These are usually Single Joint Exercises; Triceps Pushdowns and Curls. However, one Compound Exercise with a Bell Shaped Strength Curve is the 45 Degree Back/Hip Extension.

Here’s my question -

Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?

Apparently, Yes You Can

The fact that your Deadlift went up by not Deadlifting and perfoming Zercher Squat demonstrates that this is an effective method for you.

I hit a new Personal Dealift Record and set a State Records in the Deadlift by...

1) Performing Heavy Partial Good Mornings

2) Combining Heavy Partial Good Morning with Hang Pull Power Cleans and High Pulls.

In setting my Personal Deadlift and the State Records, I did not perform any Deadlift for 6 months.

Back To Technique Training

1) I am built for the Deadlift. My Technique is good even after months of not Deadlifting.

Looking back, I am not sure if having a Technique Deadlift Training Day would have helped. However, it wouldn't have hurt.

That appears to be true with you, as well.

Squatting

While I take to the Deadlift, like a duck to water, that isn't the case with my Squat

I constantly have to focus on my Squatting Technique. Everytime I Squat, it feels like a new movement.

Take Home Message

1) Technique Training

For individuals who have Technique issue with the Deadlift, like me with the Squat, or any other movement; Technique Training is imperative.

Individuls who are naturals in a movement (as you and me), some Technique Training might help. However. not as much is needed.

2) Powerlifters Utilizing Competition Lifts for Training Exercises

The dogma of using this method to increase Maxium Strength is offset by the development of Poor Technique.

Technique Training with Light To Moderate Load isn't as effective as Practicing with Heavy Loads.

Again With The Baseball Analogy

Practicing hitting a 60 mph pitch doesn't make you good at hitting a 90 mph pitch.

As the saying goes, "You play like you practice." That means to become good at hitting a 90 mph pitch or a lift, Techinque is developed when some (not all) Training Session emultate "Game Conditions" or in this case are near the 1 Repetition Max Lift.

The Westside Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting Program

Both of these approaches involves developing Maximum Strength in the Lift with Auxiliary Exercises.

The Lifters are perform, in part, as a means of devoping Technique.
 
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Replace the deadlift, for what? Why?

Obviously, there is a big carryover between big lower body exercises.
Just to simply my training. Keep it as minimalistic as possible and still get all of the benefits.

Also - I spend a stupid amount of time at a desk in front of screen with so spending less time in internal rotation is a good thing for me.

Plus - My body has never really tolerated high frequency DLs. Even when keeping around 70-80% (315-365) with low volume pulling 2-3 times a week just catches up with me. That’s not the case with Z squats. 3 weekly sessions leaves me fresh and ready for life.
 
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Maybe it is simply, "you got stronger". Zercher went from 185 - 315, or whatever numbers you mentioned. This strength adaptation would carry over to the rest of your life besides just the the zercher, right?

Have you noticed other strength related changes besides the deadlift? What about KB carry' or things like that? Body composition or more hypertrophy or things of that nature.

Same thing happened to me with barbell back squat to deadlift. Also with bench press to overhead KB lifting. I just got stronger. PERIOD. Maybe the same is happening to you and your strength improvements are extending beyond just the deadlift.

Congrats!

Eric

Yes. I have gone up a bell size on all my KB movements and doubled the distance on my carries without really putting a ton a focus into it.
 
G
The "No Deadlift" Deadlifift Program

Increasing the Deadlift with Zercher Squats and Not Deadlifting fall in line with the information in this article.

The key to developing Maximum Strength in a movement or sport is to emply exercises that work those muscle with movements that have a similar Strength Curve; that are similar in nature.

With that in mind, let me reiterate information from previous post on this.

Powerlifters

The dogma of many Powerlifter is to perform the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises, as means of getting stronger in them.

While performing the Powerlifts as Training Exercises does increase strength, it does so at the expense of...

Technique

Technique is optimally developed by...

1) Performing Heavy Movements with 85% plus loads for 1 - 2 Repetition Per Set

2) Rest Periods between Sets need to be long enough so that you have completely recovered; around 3 minutes or more of rest between sets.

3) Technique Training need to be preformed first in a Training Program when you are fresh.

4) Once Muscle Fatigue occurs, Stop! Continuing ensures Poor Technique is developed and maintained.

Muscle Fatigue

With each Repetition in an exercise Muscle Fatigue occurs.

As Muscle Fatigue sets in Technique deteriorates with each Repetition.

The Muscle Firing Sequence changes and there is a shift in the Muscle Fiber involvement .

This brings us to the subject of...

How To Increase Maximum Strength and Ensure Technique

How to maintain and improve Technique is noted above.

The key to increasing Maxium Strength in the Powerlifts is with...

1) Exercise that utilize the same muscle group in the Movement.

2) Exercises with a similar Strength Curve

Defining Strength Curves

There are three type of Strength Curves...

a) Ascending Strength Curve

This is where the movement is hard at the bottom and becomes easier as the the bar is pushed or pulled up.

The Powerlifts fall into this catagory: Squat, Bench Press (Pressing Movements), Deadlifts.

b) Descending Strength Curve Movements

This is where the movement is easy at the beginning and get harder the farther it is it moved.

Most Compound Pulling Movement fall into this category: Bent Over Row, Lat Pull Down, Upright Row, Pull Ups, etc.

c) Bell Shaped Strength Curve

This is were the exercise is easy at the beginning, Hard in the middle and easy at the end of the movement.

These are usually Single Joint Exercises; Triceps Pushdowns and Curls. However, one Compound Exercise with a Bell Shaped Strength Curve is the 45 Degree Back/Hip Extension.



Apparently, Yes You Can

The fact that your Deadlift went up by not Deadlifting and perfoming Zercher Squat demonstrates that this is an effective method for you.

I hit a new Personal Dealift Record and set a State Records in the Deadlift by...

1) Performing Heavy Partial Good Mornings

2) Combining Heavy Partial Good Morning with Hang Pull Power Cleans and High Pulls.

In setting my Personal Deadlift and the State Records, I did not perform any Deadlift for 6 months.

Back To Technique Training

1) I am built for the Deadlift. My Technique is good even after months of not Deadlifting.

Looking back, I am not sure if having a Technique Deadlift Training Day would have helped. However, it wouldn't have hurt.

That appears to be true with you, as well.

Squatting

While I take to the Deadlift, like a duck to water, that isn't the case with my Squat

I constantly have to focus on my Squatting Technique. Everytime I Squat, it feels like a new movement.

Take Home Message

1) Technique Training

For individuals who have Technique issue with the Deadlift, like me with the Squat, or any other movement; Technique Training is imperative.

Individuls who are naturals in a movement (as you and me), some Technique Training might help. However. not as much is needed.

2) Powerlifters Utilizing Competition Lifts for Training Exercises

The dogma of using this method to increase Maxium Strength is offset by the development of Poor Technique.

Technique Training with Light To Moderate Load isn't as effective as Practicing with Heavy Loads.

Again With The Baseball Analogy

Practicing hitting a 60 mph pitch doesn't make you good at hitting a 90 mph pitch.

As the saying goes, "You play like you practice." That means to become good at hitting a 90 mph pitch or a lift, Techinque is developed when some (not all) Training Session emultate "Game Conditions" or in this case are near the 1 Repetition Max Lift.

The Westside Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting Program

Both of these approaches involves developing Maximum Strength in the Lift with Auxiliary Exercises.

The Lifters are perform, in part, as a means of devoping Technique.
Thanks for this.

I also take to DLs very naturally. I can go away from the movement for 6 months and step up to the bar, find my wedge, lock in my groove & let it rip for quality like it’s something I did last week.

I’m not a naturally “strong” squatter as far as technique goes but the consistent practice over the past 18 months has closed the gap on that.

All squat variations now feel very natural or at least more natural than they did 18 months ago.
 
Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?
Maybe.
Just to simply my training. Keep it as minimalistic as possible and still get all of the benefits.
ALL the benefits? Probably not. Most? Like Kenny said, apparently yes, you can.

I'm guessing that if you are a natural DLer, then after you hit certain level of strength, you're going to need to do some (maybe not much, mind you) dedicated DL training to up your numbers.

For people not built to deadlift (like me), it's pretty easy to overtrain straight deadlifts, so the bulk of my "deadlift training" consists of deadlift variants, squats, (when I do them) good mornings, grip work, auxiliary work, etc.

Like many of the discussions here that can be broadly classified as "minimalist training", it comes down to goals and what you're willing and able to do to reach them. No one should be wasting energy on superfluous training or overtraining, of course, but some goals are going to require more than a minimal investment.
 
Can the Zercher Squat replace the DL?
Increase your deadlift number is very different to getting the benefit of the deadlift.

Let take an example besides the deadlift: some people increase the number of chin/pull up with snatch or swing. But the muscle mass gains in the lats from swing or snatch is inferior compared to from chin up or pull up.

Or let say someone lacks leg strength, and this person hits the leg press hard. A few months later his deadlift when up. Will you conclude that the leg press can replace the deadlift?
 
For sure. My goals are essentially being pretty solid at about everything life throws at me.

For example - Yesterday I helped my mother in law move these BIG awkward planters that weight around 150-200. It’s a struggle for them every year that takes a couple people and a lot of effort. I was able to easily pop em off the ground and carry them 25 yards uphill to the front of the house then go back to chasing kids around like it was no big deal.

That’s an example of what I want out of my training.
 
Increase your deadlift number is very different to getting the benefit of the deadlift.

Let take an example besides the deadlift: some people increase the number of chin/pull up with snatch or swing. But the muscle mass gains in the lats from swing or snatch is inferior compared to from chin up or pull up.

Or let say someone lacks leg strength, and this person hits the leg press hard. A few months later his deadlift when up. Will you conclude that the leg press can replace the deadlift?
I don’t really care about DL numbers. As long as I’m pulling 6-8 plates I’m fine with that.

I’m only interested in the real life performance benefits.
 
My body has never really tolerated high frequency DLs. Even when keeping around 70-80% (315-365) with low volume pulling 2-3 times a week just catches up with me.

Powerlifter Deadlifting Training

Many Powerlifter only Deadlift once a week. Some have found Deadliftint once every 10 -14 Days was required.

Dr. Tom McLaughlin Deadlift Research

As per McLaughlin's Deadlift Training Research; with the Deadlift, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

The Westside Deadlift Training Program

It revolves around a lot of Heavy Good Mornings.

As per Simmons, regarding the Deadlift...

"It (the Deadlift) takes more than it give back."

This statement reinforces McLaughlin's research and the empirical data on many Powerlifter less frequently.

"A Different Approach to Improving Your Deadlift" Muscular Development, Sept. 1969, p 24

The foundation of "The "No Deadlift" Deadlift Program that I follow is based on this article by Bill Starr; with supportive information from Loren Betz's anecdotal Deadlifting Training and Simmons, as well.

Starr included Power Clean to increase Pulling Power in the Deadlift. Speed is the grease that helps you side through a sticking point; a body in motion, then to say in motion.

That’s not the case with Z squats. 3 weekly sessions leaves me fresh and ready for life.

Partial Heavy Good Morning Recovery

What I found was that Heavy Good Morning, as with your Zercher Squats, provided great carry over to my Deadlift.

Like your Zercher Squats, my recovery from Heavy Good Mornings did beat my lower back up and require as much recovery time as Heavy Deadlifts.

Bryon Benoit

One of the greatest 132 lb, Nationally Ranked Deadliftes of the 1970's was Benoit.

Benoit's Deadlift Training revolved around Back/Hip Extenstions; very few Deadlifts.

Stimulate, Don't Annihilate.”

One of the key factors to eliciting an increase Maxium Strength is to perform enought work to stimulate it's growth; then allow it to recovery and become stronger.

That often doesn't occur with a Heavy Deadlift Program.

Summary

1) For those who can make Deadlift Training work, great.

2) For those, like myself, who have found Heavy Deadlift Training quickly and easily overtrain the lower back, another approach is required, such as...

a) Chase's Zercher Squat Program.

b) Bill Starr's Good Morning Program; which is now emulated with the Westside Deadlift Program.

c) Byron Benoit's Back/Hip Extenstion Training.

d) Kettlebell Swings

The Kettlebell Swing, as with Starr's Power Clean Training, increases "Pulling Power".

Andy Bolton's Kettlebell Training for the Deadlift falls inline with Starr's use of Power Cleans and the Westside's "Speed-Power Dealift Training Method.
 
Just to simply my training. Keep it as minimalistic as possible and still get all of the benefits.

Also - I spend a stupid amount of time at a desk in front of screen with so spending less time in internal rotation is a good thing for me.

Plus - My body has never really tolerated high frequency DLs. Even when keeping around 70-80% (315-365) with low volume pulling 2-3 times a week just catches up with me. That’s not the case with Z squats. 3 weekly sessions leaves me fresh and ready for life.
Zercher Squats are going to build the mid and upper back, a lot more than you might realize. At some point you face two problems - your weak point will be something least effectively worked by the movements (Which happens with anything, that's why people rotate exercises over time) and progress will slow to infinitesimal or stop, and the limiting factor becomes something non-muscular. The pain involved with Zerchers using a standard bar becomes a lot as the weight climbs. When you start pushing up towards 500 lbs, it hurts a lot and you start to question your life decisions while you are doing the movement. There was a video on-line from Sorinex of Eric Frasure doing 1k out of the rack a few years ago. I promise you Eric doesn't do that sort of thing a lot and it didn't carry over to some massive DL.
 
Zercher Squats are going to build the mid and upper back, a lot more than you might realize. At some point you face two problems - your weak point will be something least effectively worked by the movements (Which happens with anything, that's why people rotate exercises over time) and progress will slow to infinitesimal or stop, and the limiting factor becomes something non-muscular. The pain involved with Zerchers using a standard bar becomes a lot as the weight climbs. When you start pushing up towards 500 lbs, it hurts a lot and you start to question your life decisions while you are doing the movement. There was a video on-line from Sorinex of Eric Frasure doing 1k out of the rack a few years ago. I promise you Eric doesn't do that sort of thing a lot and it didn't carry over to some massive DL.
For sure.

I do have an “end of the road” in sight for the Z Squat. For me that looks like comfortable reps with 315-365. MAYBE an occasional 405.

I’m of the mindset that if I can’t comfortable do it 2-3 times a week without wrecking myself then it’s just not a good fit for me.
 
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