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It's been said to cycle fat and carbs. On workout days eat more carbs and on non workout days have fat. What constitutes a workout? Is s&s a workout? I thought it was a practice. Is abc a carb worthy workout?
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North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I cannot imagine why you would specifically cycle carb/fat macros by day like that.
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Martin Berkhan (Leangains 16/8 if guru) says carbs on workout days and John Berardi did the 16/8 using Martin's suggestions. I know Cory Gregory's anabolic fasting is similar. He says 16/8 fasting, fat meals during the day, and a carb or carb meal at the end or before bed.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
For what purpose?
It's worth trying for yourself to see how it feels to you. I know that, for me, I hear the carb bell ring some days, and indulge in bread, pizza, pasta, and whatever else. I don't feel the urge to do this often, but when I do and the food is available, I go with it.
S&S not being a traditional "workout" - this is a good observation on your part. Anything that tries to add mass to you, e.g., ABC, would be a strong candidate, IMHO.
Cyclic ketogenic diets work this way, and some people like them. You can read Natural Hormonal Enhancement for a more in-depth discussion of this from a natural bodybuilder - the book presents two plans, if memory serves.
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Iversen
Level 1 Valued Member
Carb cycling used to be super popular and it doesn't seem to be as popular these days for whatever reason...
I still do it but mine looks different to what you'll see recommended in some places.
I train 2 days on 1 day off and pretty much looks like this:
Day 1: Mod carbs
Day 2: Low carbs
Day 3: High carbs (rest day)
Day 1 is usually my HEAVY day and day 2 is MODERATE day in the gym.
It's about both replenishing glycogen stores and also there's a reason why strongmen eat so much. More food = stronger lifts. I just found for me it worked better by eating more or less the day prior to my workouts etc.
Fat cycling I'm not really sure about... I eat a pretty high fat diet of mostly good fats and I wouldn't want to mess with that for inflammation reasons.
I still do it but mine looks different to what you'll see recommended in some places.
I train 2 days on 1 day off and pretty much looks like this:
Day 1: Mod carbs
Day 2: Low carbs
Day 3: High carbs (rest day)
Day 1 is usually my HEAVY day and day 2 is MODERATE day in the gym.
It's about both replenishing glycogen stores and also there's a reason why strongmen eat so much. More food = stronger lifts. I just found for me it worked better by eating more or less the day prior to my workouts etc.
Fat cycling I'm not really sure about... I eat a pretty high fat diet of mostly good fats and I wouldn't want to mess with that for inflammation reasons.
Deleted member 5559
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I'm currently in ketosis and my performance is every bit of 10-15% worse. I think low carb can work well for endurance athletes or keeping reps to 3 and under working on a relative strength. However, for absolute strength and power, carbs are absolutely necessary.
Limiting carb intake around training only effects body fat storage in my experience. Including carbs is fundamentally what drives performance, when you have them drives fat storage.
Limiting carb intake around training only effects body fat storage in my experience. Including carbs is fundamentally what drives performance, when you have them drives fat storage.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Keto Adapted
The majority of individuals who remain on the Ketogenic Diet long enough become Keto Adapted. Once Keto Adapted,, there performance should be the same as individuals on a Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet, when it come to Maxmium Strength and Power Training.
Carbohydrates Aren't Necessary
...for increasing Maximum Strength or Power. Research has demonstrated that..again, providing an individual is Keto Adapted.
Phosphate Energy System
Strength, Power and Speed Training utilize the Phosphaten Energy System, ATP.
It is not directly reliant on either glucose nor ketones.
ATP/Adenosine Triphosphate
Ketogenic diet slows down mitochondrial myopathy progression in mice. - PubMed - NCBI
The magic of a low carb ketogenic diet takes time to develop. During keto adaptation, the ability to get ATP from fat & ketones soon rivals that of glucose.
The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation.
The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation - PubMed
To study the effect of chronic ketosis on exercise performance in endurance-trained humans, five well-trained cyclists were fed a eucaloric balanced diet (EBD) for one week providing 35-50 kcal/kg/d, 1.75 g protein/kg/d and the remainder of kilocalories as two-thirds carbohydrate (CHO) and...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
More than 3 weeks on a ketogenic diet and you have more better mitochondria and can generate ATP just as fast as high carb.
A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Combined with 6-Weeks of Crossfit Training Improves Body Composition and Performance
exercise medicine
Research by Rachael Gregory with CrossFit Training determined that once Keto Adaptation took place, CrossFit athlete training performance was equal to those on a Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet.
With that said...
Many Exercise Physiologist...
contend that ATP Muscle Restoration occur faster with glucose than ketones.
If true, the question is, "How much faster is glucose restored to muscle than ketones?"
Ironically, there is no data on that and when the Exercise Physiologist that I have quizzed on it, basic reply is, "Glucose is faster"; a vague answer that end the discussion.
Strength, Power and Speed Training
Recommended Rest Periods are between sets is 3 minute or longer.
As per Pavel in the first 13 seconds of this video, he states that Strength Training Rest Periods should be 5 - 15 minutes between sets.
Dr Mike T. Nelson
As per Nelson, “If we look at Olympic lifting and powerlifting, it’s extremely explosive power, the duration of time is very short, so it’s primarily the ATP-CP energy system. So, ketosis in those athletes may be OK because they’re typically doing brief high output with pretty long rest periods.” Source: Does the Ketogenic Diet Work for Strength Training? - BarBend
Personal Perspective
I've been on the Ketogenic Diet since July 2016; due to a metabolic heath condition.
There was definitely a learning curve with the diet and how to write what I term as a "Ketogenic Diet Strength-Power Training Program". Whoever said, "There ain't no free lunch", wasn't kidding."
It took me about a year to figure it out. My Strength-Power Train via the Ketogenic Diet is back on track; just as good, if not better than when I was on the Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet.
Summary
1) Strength and Power Training can be just as effective on a Ketogenic Diet; carbohydrates are not necessary.
2) Strength and Power Training utilize the Phosphagen Energy System. This system is not directly dependent on glucose nor ketones.
3) Carbohyrates allegedly restore ATP faster than ketones.
a) No one knows how much faster.
b) If you are taking 3 minutes or longer between sets, it doesn't matter if you're on a Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet of Ketogenic Diet. Three minutes or longer is more than enough time for ATP Muscle Restoration.
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It's been 3 weeks so hopefully it will start to get back on track over the coming weeks.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
Alleged?
What do you mean or imply?
That, during anaerobic activity, ketones supply atp quicker than glucose/glycogen?
How? Precisely, how?
Ketones are an alternative fuel. They are not an alternative fact.
ATP itself is a sugar.
I'll repeat, for clarity.
ATP itself is a sugar.
All systems contribute to replenishment of ATP.
One of which is glucose. Occurs anaerobically or aerobically.
Ketones require oxygen.
So what's alleged, or unalleged or whatever it is?
Please, willing to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. I study physics not chemistry but interested to learn new stuff.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
Oh, to be clear....mentioned atp is a sugar, which it is but energy is obtained from the release of phosphate.
By what mechanism are ketones able to produce ATP?
I know and understand how this occurs aerobically but not anaerobically.
So, to pin this down....how is creatine phosphate restocked?
Do ketones have a role? What about glucose? Moreover, glycogen and and the role of glucose-6-phosphate?
Where and how do all these factors contribute to atp production?
And then the role of glucose-1-phosphate in fast twitch.
Do these phosphate groups have any influence on the phosphate system when there is an energy demand?
Some, a little or none?
By what mechanism are ketones able to produce ATP?
I know and understand how this occurs aerobically but not anaerobically.
So, to pin this down....how is creatine phosphate restocked?
Do ketones have a role? What about glucose? Moreover, glycogen and and the role of glucose-6-phosphate?
Where and how do all these factors contribute to atp production?
And then the role of glucose-1-phosphate in fast twitch.
Do these phosphate groups have any influence on the phosphate system when there is an energy demand?
Some, a little or none?
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
S&s would constitute a work out for this nutritional advice. A workout in this context seems to be anytime you want to exert yourself on purpose. the idea is that the performance benefit of being in a carb fed state usually results in higher perceived work output. Generally carb fueled activity has a higher net radical oxygen species out put. This may increase perceived need for rest and recovery. Allot of this has to do with how robust and stable the sugar energy pathway is for the person.
And consider the post by @kennycro@@aol.com above. Very good stuff.
Generally speaking of you're a pro, there may be a higher net positive outcome by strategically employing carbs for peaking.
If you're a schlub like me approaching zero net carbs can have a higher total net benefit .
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Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
Ketone bodies can be utilized as fuel in the heart, brain and muscle, but not the liver. They yield 2 guanosine triphosphate (GTP) and 22 adenosine triphosphate (ATP) molecules per acetoacetate molecule when oxidized in the mitochondria.
The problem is when you need more phosphates this wheel turns too slow. And your body goes for the glycogen anyways. So you can only count on this below anaerobic threshold
Also these path ways are chemically discreet. Fatty acid and sugar pathways don't share nicely. Hence keto flu and adaptation periods.
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