From your mouth to G-d's ears
Other/Mixed Cardio debunked
- Thread starter John Kowalski
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Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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From your mouth to G-d's ears
mprevost
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, there is no problem with training in zone 3, especially if health is a concern. For sedentary individuals, it would be best to spend some time in zone 1 and 2 to build some aerobic base and durability before starting any zone 3-5 work but for those who train regularly, just pick a row in the table and go for it.
mprevost
Level 7 Valued Member
There is no reasonably accurate formula to predict maximum heart rate. The average error for all formulas is around 10 beats per minute. You have to fine tune it using perceived exertion, or if healthy and cleared by your doctor, I prefer a max test to determine your actual max heart rate, rather than estimating or guessing.
I am lucky in that the standard 220=age formula gets me pretty close. Others might find this estimate to be way off and this can lead to distorted zones.
I did a very informal test when I was 45 years old - wore a HRM, went for a few mile run and gradually sped up as I approached the end so that I was running all-out for the last part, IOW, I tried to do what I thought was the proper protocol. 220-age for me would have predicted 175 but I hit 184.
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offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
And that's the rub... and why there isn't a good formula. Even today using 220 my max should be 160. I can exceed that by a good bit, although I never train at that level.
I have read some things that suggest our max HR will increase with training. Also that we each have an actual maximum that, after some amount of training, will be reached and then won't change further.
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Yes, and it really isn't that difficult to determine with a HRM, doing what I did.
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John Kowalski
Level 2 Valued Member
A little bit off topic: let's assume that I would do push ups and bodyweight squats in replace of swings and getups from S&S, is it still gonna give the same type of conditioning (A+A)?
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
what are the measurable and comparable markers making this conclusion?
I have a hard time with that.
My max hr this summer at the end of a 10min running test was 185bpm
Zone 1 @ 70% would be 129,5bpm
Zone 5 @ 95% would be 175,6 bpm
These are the mere numbers.
What goes on in Zone 1, subjectively: easy nose breathing. breathing in with 4 steps, breathing out with up to 6 steps. almost silent steps. My mind can wander a bit, totally enjoying the synchronisation of breathing, the steps, swinging of the arms, sometimes with an inner smile or being just neutral. Relaxation.
What goes on in Zone 2, subjectively: breathing through the nose is really hard. The more I need to suck air through my nose, the narrower my nostrils get, so I have sometimes to use my mouth. feet pounding hard into the ground. No feeling of any harmony. My mind is obsessive, all kind of mostly negative emotions may occur. Must fight through it. I want to let go. On a better day I am maybe superheroe, because no one trains as hard as me... Tunnel view.
My uneducated gut tells me, that on a cellular/biochemical level there are kind of similar scenarios like my subjective description not to mention the ratio of gas exchange.
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mprevost
Level 7 Valued Member
Hi Harald
They are not equivalent at all from a physiological adaptation point of view and a performance point of view. They also stress different systems to different extents, so they will feel very different. Remember, with that chart I am talking about reducing risk of mortality, not performance. I am speculating a bit, getting out ahead of the research a bit but I am comfortable with doing that.
If we were talking about training for performance, I would tell you that they are not equivalent at all, and that they are not interchangeable.
Mike
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
My approach is evolutionary. Our bodies are made to walk around and to pick things up and walk with them and to occasionally run a bit and jump a little, perhaps even swim. I think if you try to short-cut your way out of this you're harming your health. I do not think lifting weights replaces going for a walk; nothing does, not even running. It's like with fish - they are made to swim. If they don't swim I can't imagine them staying healthy.
Judging by all the old people I see walking outside all the time, I'd say that yes, walking does the trick for overall health and wellness.
When I used to live up in the bush as a child, I'd often choose to run from place to place rather than to walk since walking took too long, so maybe I'd allow running to be a natural replacement for walking.
Judging by all the old people I see walking outside all the time, I'd say that yes, walking does the trick for overall health and wellness.
When I used to live up in the bush as a child, I'd often choose to run from place to place rather than to walk since walking took too long, so maybe I'd allow running to be a natural replacement for walking.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I don't think anything is "pure" cardio. When you run or walk you are using lots of muscles and this leads to them strengthening. It's a kind of high rep lifting of weights actually. I notice running tones my body up nicely just as if I did a lot of specific weight lifting to try to achieve the same thing, particularly in my core.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
@Harald Motz, had my first light easy trail run today for a good while. Very nice it was too, soft winter light in the woods. Nasal breathing, relaxed, easy-oasy. I get the distinction now, where nasal breathing starts getting to be a struggle, more conscious control required in synch with 1/2 beats over my maf number. All that S&S crossover. I feel now I can rely on my breath to instruct me more than the hr does, it certainly has taken a long time to connect the dots though!
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