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Old Forum Charles Staley article

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The Scientist,

It is not a subjective opinion. You already stated that you are not an athlete so it is your opinion that is subjective. Being the Olympic champion and world record holder in the decathlon makes one the world's greatest athlete. That is what the decathlon is: 10 events to determine who is best across a wide array of disciplines. After recently coming up a few seconds short of setting the indoor heptathlon world record, Ashton Eaton slammed his hand down on a table and proclaimed himself weak. I wish I was that weak.

In the early days of the UFC there were no weight classes. Kazushi Sakuraba was a fill-in for an injured training partner. He defeated a fighter that was 60lb heavier to win the title. I practice internal martial arts where size is irrelevant. My teacher weighs at least 30lb less than I do and he has no muscles to speak of but I can't move him at all.
 
Don't run. Get strong, turn and fight. I kid, I kid. I want to be able to run. About 200 meters with a buddy over my shoulder so I can set up a hasty one-man linear ambush. I kid, I kid. I have great regard for my fellow humans plodding down the sidewalk with their iPods and a 20 minute mile pace as they explore the fat burning aerobic zone. There's no doubt they're not only adding decades to their lives but they're developing the endurance to move really small things a huge number of times. When a pickup game of jogging comes up, who's gonna be ready? They are, that's who. When your wife needs someone to help her turn the lug wrench at the side of the road, who's gonna be able jog to a pay phone several miles away to call for help?  Then who's gonna be thankful Mr. The Scientist Skeptic Man?
 
I don't think life is about helping people move their couch, and I don't think it's about running distance.  The quality that should come out on top is the one that lets us express ourselves physically the way we want to.

In my social circle, I'm the strongest by far, but my friend Paul was the one who climbed El Capitan.  My friend Ryan was the one who did the 220 John Muir trail in 7 days.  My wife is the one who can swim like a fish.  My best friend Micah out rides me when we cycle.

I could count the number of times someone has asked me to help them move something heavy in the past year on one hand.  This is where I fall away from the meaning behind "Strong First."  I went to a trail race with my friend Ryan two weeks ago.  He averaged a 6:30-7:30 mile the entire time.  I'll happily acknowledge that he's the better athlete between us.  I just tried Tracy Reifkind's Top 40 workout for the second time and barely made it through 2/3rds.
 
Gents, this is getting emotional! I'll look at throwing the spanner in the works here: Whether you run or not is surely based on several factors: enjoyment; necessity; specificity. Or in other words: does everyone enjoy running? If you don't enjoy should you do it? If you're in the military - yes you have to, otherwise - I don't think so. Is it necessary? If you're a rugby back - yes sprinting is necessary in line with rapid direction change. If you're a forward, straight line for 10m... Specificity - use the examples above. However, if one has poor biomechanics and is carrying too much inactive mass (i.e. fat) running is a highway to injury and frustration. I do think that most people should have the ability to be able to run if they need to. However, I do think that biomechanically one should train people to run so they don't get injured doing it. I don't run at present & haven't really run for 10 years. I'm probably still capable of a 30min 5k with nil training - which is OKish. However, I have run in the past - with & without weight. I was able to pull a decent half marathon time of 1:21 at a weight of 84kg & 2.4km time of 6:58. I just plain lost interest in running. I am happy to coach & assist people to run, after correcting their biomechanics & building strength in their stabilisers to minimise injury risk.

 
 
The article Rickard linked rings true; there is a smart/hard dichotomy.

Who is it that said:

"You don't run to get in shape, you get in shape to run."
 
Nick, I think I understand your point, and would then ask - would you say only running, or would you generalise to any aerobic activity.  Say cycling and be strong, swimming and be strong, for example.  I know there's the popular historical example of the warriors of old who rowed massive ships hundreds of kms, got out, had a bit of a fight, then rowed home.  They were strong!

I admit, it is so practical to be able to run well.  Interesting discussion lads.
 
This probably shouldn't be an "either/or" discussion but rather the point of running/jogging for people.

And...

I come down to the simple fact that I don't think most people NEED to run.

And...

That running isn't going to turn you into a female without muscle.

Answer is somewhere inbetween. I personally loved during RoP variety days doing nosebreathing barefoot work. It isn't the end of fitness. Nor the END of all fitness.
 
Do whatever you enjoy. I like to run through the woods, on the beach or up and over a mountain peak. I used to run for exercise but the farther I went the more it became a personal challenge to see how far or fast I could run. My 47th year is less than a month away and I have the metabolism of a 12 year old and look and feel 15 years younger. Whether it's cycling, swimming, rowing, basketball, soccer or kb swings does not matter if you are happy with the results. But don't forget to enjoy the journey. Jack LaLanne hated every push up he did and every mile he swam.

Rowing accomplishes with one discipline what running and weightlifting combine to do in terms of heart health. Many of us focus on the muscles we see but the most important one is inside your chest.

Running is a part of almost every sport and walking is the first thing we do each day. Sitting is bad and lying down is for sleeping so it would be wise to spend some quality time on our feet. Run smart and you may find to your surprise that you are having fun out there. It just may take a while. It took me about 12 years to come around.

http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/Nature2010_FootStrikePatternsandCollisionForces.pdf
 
Nick,

I am also about 5-9, 195lbs, want to lose 15 and start feeling better.  I would consider myself a beginner distance runner with way above average strength compared to people that are on this board.  What would you suggest as a program for me?  I like the negative splits idea you mentioned.

Thanks
 
Brian D, "would consider myself a beginner distance runner with way above average strength compared to people that are on this board" makes me curious! In what way?

(If this comes out in anyway other than a humble question consider it a byproduct of the fact that English isn't my naitive language)
 
Actually, I should not have said that-I don't know to many on this board.  Just know what people mention on this board, so I was comparing to that.   I can DL 500 without much training, swing the 32kg 1 arm style for 100 in under 5 min.  deadhang around 20 pullups-12 of them touch my chest, pistol with 32kg about 3 reps in a row per leg, I don't have a heavier bell otherwise would be using a heavier one.  I guess I was just trying to say I am a very inexperienced distance runner-anything above 3 miles or more then 10 miles a week.
 
Brian D,

You need to be able to run for at least 20 minutes to get the aerobic benefits. Beginners should start with 20-30 min of easy running 3x a week. Then increase the time or distance or add another day per week. Heel striking is only for walking. Even downhill running can be done with landing on the fore/mid-foot but you need to be moving pretty fast to do it. The fore/mid-foot lands just before the heel and with some people at the same time. Running on the balls of the feet with no heel strike is only for sprints.

What the negative split does is it keeps you mentally engaged. Go ahead and enjoy being outdoors but there will always be a goal to attain in the second half of the run. As your running improves you will be running faster and be able to run harder (fast being relative to our abilities). It's easy to run negative splits when you run a medium-paced first half. There is a great sense of accomplishment when you run your first n/s during a fast-paced run. Last year I ran a n/s after a fast first hour once and this season (Nov-present) I have done it 6 times. None of them were easy but I felt on top of the world. I coach ms/hs cross country and track and on each Jan 1 some of my former runners and I participate in a Resolution Run in Auburn, CA, the self-proclaimed endurance capital of the world and site of the finish of the Western States 100 mile endurance run. It is a 10k that snakes down into a canyon and then works it's way back up to the Auburn Overlook. Of the six of them that ran only two beat me and in years past this would have been unheard of. Now this is something I enjoy so I am not suggesting that you become a diehard runner. But do try to find some enjoyment out of it or it can suck like nothing else.
 
Brian D, it's always easy to write something that doesn't quite sound right afterwards :) however you seem very comparable to me and I weigh a bit more and I consider myself quite average so if you want to you can join my club? Except for pullups... I can only do 15strict... so you can be the pullup master in our two-man club.

 

Nick, good summary of basic running and how to start run. I had also never heard the term negative split so I thank you for the new knowledge too.
 
The Scientist, could you please explain why training as a distance runner, to improve times etc, is any worse/better than training as a powerlifter? Chase your passion.

Charles Staley's article is laughable. He may have some valid points, but to suggest that distance running is de-masculating is utterly rediculous, and he deserves to be absolutely derided for it. The whole bro-science view of hormonal physiology, more testosterone, less of everything else, is rediculous and an insult to how complicated physiology actually is. Aerobic exercise is highly beneficial for a man's sexual health.

People need to stop exemplifying marathon runners as evidence distance running makes you scrawny and weak. These are extremes. At the other end look at a fat powerlifter who can't climb a flight of stairs. Instead, look at people like miltary servicemen or fighters. These people run a lot. They do it for a reason, the people training them know what they are talking about. It is not just dumb tradition. These people could kick your a#@. Most people tragically neglect their aerobic conditioning. I understand its probably a bit of backlash against the jogging trend.
 
A C,

"Hear hear".  There is a place for LSD work; we inherited the genetic make up of migratory animals, after all.

Nick,

As a clinician who conducts gait analyses, I don't give those specific recommendations with my corrective drills, but I know what you're trying to do ...

I've observed that when you recommend mid-foot striking most people, they go from heel striking to "toe running", swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction - especially if you're not working with them each session.

What we are trying to do as providers, is get folks to load the soft tissues of the lower leg and not the skeleton.  This can (and possibly, should) be done at slower speeds, and especially while wearing shoes with a heel drop.  The heel can contact the ground at the same time as the mid-foot - it's the loading that needs to be changed.  In a discussion about LSD work, i.e., jogging - this is applicable.

To confound things, if the musculature is weak due to years of running improperly, then a "break-in" period is required, similar to a return-to-run program.  As you say, sprinting is a total "ball of foot" deal and should occur automatically, but in patients with weaknesses, we see that they can't maintain a proper foot strike for too long.

You're mostly correct in your description, but one should abstain from giving blanket advice across a population.

-Al
 
Those video posts were great.  I don't think I can name anyone past or present that could compete with him.  Running burns fat off me like nothing else can.  Nick,   I started running 1 week ago tomorrow, 3 twenty minute runs and lost 5 pounds already.
 
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