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Off-Topic Chronic Fatigue

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Thomas-NNC

Thomas-NNC

Level 1 Valued Member
I'd like to connect with anyone who has recovered from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and gone on to maintain a KB routine.

I am passionate about kettlebells and have been a student of movement and fitness through my adult life. However, my ongoing struggle with chronic fatigue (12 years) means that I cannot maintain a KB regimen since I do not recover from exercise and have to be careful about depleting myself and worsening my symptoms. Instead I focus on low impact work to maintain good posture and flexibility, which can also sometimes be too demanding.

I'd like to know if the StrongFirst cadre encounter students with these issues and I'd be glad to hear from anyone who can speak first-hand on the issue of severe fatigue, recovery of health and the joy of kettlebells.

Kindly,
Thomas
 
Greetings, @Thomas-NNC! Have you had your adrenal levels, etc checked ( I assume you have). How's your daily stress levels and sleep? I have suffered from this, albeit on and off, not for years , due to anxiety, stress, and terrible sleep patterns. Mine hits me like a ton of bricks, and I need to back off of working out for days, sometimes weeks. I'm experiencing it now as a matter of fact, and will probably take a few days to level off. I'm sorry for you pain and understand how debilitating this can be. I think the best advice I can give is to trust your body and never work out into fatigue! I also monitor my HR and try to stay in the 121-148 range when working out.
 
I've never been diagnosed with chronic fatigue but there's plenty of times when I work too many hours, don't get enough sleep, don't eat right and basically just feel zapped. On those days when I'm just not "feeling it" I still do my workout (presently simple and sinister) but I back off the weight and intensity.

For instance yesterday I had no energy or motivation but I did my swings with a 16kg and TGU's with a 12kg and I drug it out for an hour and 15 minutes with complete full recovery between every set. By the time I was done my energy level was back up and felt much better than if I had done nothing. S&S has allowed me to stay fresh everyday without soreness mainly by giving myself ample recovery time between sets and keeping the weight at a reasonable level.

I rarely test myself (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) and otherwise usually try to stay in the Maffetone HR zone. My days of pushing myself to the limit every workout are over and I feel much better for it.
 
aciampa said:
@Thomas-NNC, @Peck'88, do either of you practice any form of breathing? I highly encourage this first.

You don't "need" a KB plan. You can do one or two lifts once or a few times per day, depending upon your energy levels. Walk... a lot.
Click to expand...
@aciampa. Yes, I do- Diaphragmatic. It has certainly helped a lot. My wife loves to walk, me, not so much (I do about 5-6 miles a week). I'd much rather play softball, football, volleyball, surf, etc. I couldn't agree more on the no KB plan. I personally never program, and that has worked best for me.
 
I had fairly severe chronic fatigue until three years ago - even as a child, I had no energy, and CF was the doctors' best guess diagnosis.
Three years ago, I was diagnosed with partial complex epilepsy in the ER and went on keto while I waited to get in with a neurologist. Now I have tons of energy. Was it because seizures are exhausting? Does my body just work better in ketosis? Little of both? Who knows. Whatever it is, I went from dragging all the time with crashes that lasted days or weeks, to having a high level of energy for an adult (I stipulate "adult" because my hyper eight-year-old never, ever slows down).
It's weird, but awesome.

I'm still really, really careful with workouts though. If I think there's a chance of that wiped-out feeling, I'm not doing it - I have a lifetime of self-preservation that warns me against that feeling. So sometimes I pass on a workout when I'd probably be okay, but I just don't want to risk it. I get tired out with S&S, but rarely feel depleted and if I do, I rest for a day or two. Sometimes my workouts drop down to three days a week (I aim for at least four) and that concerns me, but I'm still making good progress.
I'd probably make faster progress if I faced that fear of exhaustion, but...uh...no. Not yet. I'm good with this :D
 
You have been cleared by your doc to train, correct?

Listen to your voice of self preservation. If you are making good progress on three days, then stick with that; don't fret about doing four or more.
 
Peck'88 said:
Yes, I do- Diaphragmatic. It has certainly helped a lot.
Click to expand...

"Diaphragmatic breathing" is not a form of breathing practice; it is a drill to teach you the muscle that you are supposed to use to ventilate with.

If this drill has helped your condition (as a secondary effect, it probably caused you to breathe less), a formal practice will certainly lead to improvements.
 
In my experience walking, yoga, and TGUs (weighted yoga for me) have the most positive effects on improving my hormone profile. I personally like box breathing: 3-4 count inhale, 3-4 count hold, 3-4 count exhale, 3-4 count hold.
 
aciampa said:
"Diaphragmatic breathing" is not a form of breathing practice; it is a drill to teach you the muscle that you are supposed to use to ventilate with.

If this drill has helped your condition (as a secondary effect, it probably caused you to breathe less), a formal practice will certainly lead to improvements.
Click to expand...
What form of breathing practice do you suggest @aciampa? I've used 7-11 technique to calm the storms after a bought of anxiety or stress, but it's tough when your heart is beating out of your freakin chest!
 
Bro Mo said:
In my experience walking, yoga, and TGUs (weighted yoga for me) have the most positive effects on improving my hormone profile. I personally like box breathing: 3-4 count inhale, 3-4 count hold, 3-4 count exhale, 3-4 count hold.
Click to expand...
Agree, on TGU's helping. Gonna check out that box breathing, thanks @Bro Mo!
 
Hi, Thomas -

Over the past year, I have encountered a similar condition as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), although my condition was more related low thyroid levels. Have you had your thyroid levels checked? The adrenals, thyroid, and CFS usually are related.

Here is a list of some of the items that have helped me:

  1. I always did my KB training first thing in the morning (usually around 5:30a) with caffeine and no carbohydrates - bad mix of ingredients for keeping your cortisol levels in check. I now have 30-40 grams of protein and 30-40 grams of carbohydrates 30-45 minutes before training. Immediately (within 30 minutes) after training, I eat another 50g of carbs and 40g of protein. In my opinion, this has had the biggest influence on how I feel and how I recover. I believe my low thyroid levels were a result of chronic glycogen depletion due to the low carb diet I have followed over the past 3-5 years. When I started using KBs, that's when things spiraled out of control due to the anaerobic nature of this form of exercise. I felt an immediate impact on my training (stronger), recovery (less muscle soreness), and my sleep (sounder). Please reference this link (Carb controversy: Why low-carb diets have got it all wrong. | Precision Nutrition), titled: "Carb Controversy: Why Low Carb Diets Have Got it Wrong." The Paleo / Low Carb Diet might work for some people, but I am firmly convinced that people who train (especially with KBs - S&S) need carbohydrates to replenish glycogen levels, and glucose is needed by the liver to convert T4 thyroid hormone into the active, usable form of thyroid hormone (free T3).
  2. Chronically depleted glycogen levels also result in low serotonin. I started using 5-HTP (50mg) about 30 minutes before I go to sleep. The first couple nights I took it, I could tell a big difference in the quality of my sleep.
  3. Glutamine - Take 2grams post- exercise. This also helped me with chronic muscle soreness due to chronic glycogen depletion. Also, take a good multivitamin to make sure you are covering all your macro/micro nutrients.
  4. Follow what Pavel, Al, and Steve have been teaching regarding performing your S&S routines or other barbell/body weight routines: Take long rests (do not get your heart rate up too high). I have been resting at least 2-3 minutes between sets of KB swings. In the Turkish Get-Ups (TGUs), I will do a TGU (left-handed) and then alternate to a TGU (right-handed) with a little rest (~15secs) in between. After I finish a set of TGUs for both right & left-hand, I will rest 4-6 minutes. The total session lasts me almost an hour with warm-up, but I recover much better and feel good the rest of the day.
  5. Try a heart rate variability application (HRV), I use "Elite HRV" in conjunction with a bluetooth heart rate transmitter (Polar). In my opinion, heart rate variability can be a good data point to determine how much stress you can absorb. I take my reading in the morning, and use it (as well as other data points) to determine my training intensity level (or whether I need to rest) for the day.
  6. Relax!...Chill out more! - Like Al and Steve have been saying, diaphragmatic breathing, relaxing walks and lots of them. In addition, try getting a massage, take an epsom salt bath, read a good book, buy a fish tank :O) Anything to help get you body in the rest, relaxation, and repair state.
I hope some of these recommendations can help you or other members on the forum who have been struggling with CFS or thyroid issues, as these recommendations have helped me tremendously. Haven't hit Simple, yet, but on my way :O)

Best Regards, Jason
 
Peck'88 said:
Greetings, @Thomas-NNC! Have you had your adrenal levels, etc checked ( I assume you have). How's your daily stress levels and sleep? I have suffered from this, albeit on and off, not for years , due to anxiety, stress, and terrible sleep patterns. Mine hits me like a ton of bricks, and I need to back off of working out for days, sometimes weeks. I'm experiencing it now as a matter of fact, and will probably take a few days to level off. I'm sorry for you pain and understand how debilitating this can be. I think the best advice I can give is to trust your body and never work out into fatigue! I also monitor my HR and try to stay in the 121-148 range when working out.
Click to expand...

Yes, I very much get that "ton of bricks" feeling.
 
aciampa said:
@Thomas-NNC, @Peck'88, do either of you practice any form of breathing? I highly encourage this first.

You don't "need" a KB plan. You can do one or two lifts once or a few times per day, depending upon your energy levels. Walk... a lot.
Click to expand...
Yes, meditation and breathing has been a basis of my wellness including variations from Qigong, yoga and other mindfulness-based practices. Just goes to show that chronic illness can still occur despite the best practice.
 
aciampa said:
@Thomas-NNC, @Peck'88, do either of you practice any form of breathing? I highly encourage this first.

You don't "need" a KB plan. You can do one or two lifts once or a few times per day, depending upon your energy levels. Walk... a lot.
Click to expand...
Part of what I love about KBs is the flexibility of doing more or doing less work. I get this principle very much.
 
Hasbro said:
I've never been diagnosed with chronic fatigue but there's plenty of times when I work too many hours, don't get enough sleep, don't eat right and basically just feel zapped. On those days when I'm just not "feeling it" I still do my workout (presently simple and sinister) but I back off the weight and intensity.

For instance yesterday I had no energy or motivation but I did my swings with a 16kg and TGU's with a 12kg and I drug it out for an hour and 15 minutes with complete full recovery between every set. By the time I was done my energy level was back up and felt much better than if I had done nothing. S&S has allowed me to stay fresh everyday without soreness mainly by giving myself ample recovery time between sets and keeping the weight at a reasonable level.

I rarely test myself (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) and otherwise usually try to stay in the Maffetone HR zone. My days of pushing myself to the limit every workout are over and I feel much better for it.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Yes, you demonstrate a sound approach and I think most of us have to do the same thing by knowing when to back off a bit. To give you an idea of what chronic fatigue is like, well, it's not just feeling tired or overworked - it is severe, to-the-bone fatigue and exercise intolerance. Imagine walking up a few stairs and feeling sore and exhausted when you get to the top.
 
miraculish said:
I had fairly severe chronic fatigue until three years ago - even as a child, I had no energy, and CF was the doctors' best guess diagnosis.
Three years ago, I was diagnosed with partial complex epilepsy in the ER and went on keto while I waited to get in with a neurologist. Now I have tons of energy. Was it because seizures are exhausting? Does my body just work better in ketosis? Little of both? Who knows. Whatever it is, I went from dragging all the time with crashes that lasted days or weeks, to having a high level of energy for an adult (I stipulate "adult" because my hyper eight-year-old never, ever slows down).
It's weird, but awesome.

I'm still really, really careful with workouts though. If I think there's a chance of that wiped-out feeling, I'm not doing it - I have a lifetime of self-preservation that warns me against that feeling. So sometimes I pass on a workout when I'd probably be okay, but I just don't want to risk it. I get tired out with S&S, but rarely feel depleted and if I do, I rest for a day or two. Sometimes my workouts drop down to three days a week (I aim for at least four) and that concerns me, but I'm still making good progress.
I'd probably make faster progress if I faced that fear of exhaustion, but...uh...no. Not yet. I'm good with this :D
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your experience. Very helpful thank you. Diet is playing a significant role in my own recovery, foremost, eliminating food allergies, which until recently, I was unaware of.
 
Jaydogg23 said:
Hi, Thomas -

Over the past year, I have encountered a similar condition as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), although my condition was more related low thyroid levels. Have you had your thyroid levels checked? The adrenals, thyroid, and CFS usually are related.

Here is a list of some of the items that have helped me:

  1. I always did my KB training first thing in the morning (usually around 5:30a) with caffeine and no carbohydrates - bad mix of ingredients for keeping your cortisol levels in check. I now have 30-40 grams of protein and 30-40 grams of carbohydrates 30-45 minutes before training. Immediately (within 30 minutes) after training, I eat another 50g of carbs and 40g of protein. In my opinion, this has had the biggest influence on how I feel and how I recover. I believe my low thyroid levels were a result of chronic glycogen depletion due to the low carb diet I have followed over the past 3-5 years. When I started using KBs, that's when things spiraled out of control due to the anaerobic nature of this form of exercise. I felt an immediate impact on my training (stronger), recovery (less muscle soreness), and my sleep (sounder). Please reference this link (Carb controversy: Why low-carb diets have got it all wrong. | Precision Nutrition), titled: "Carb Controversy: Why Low Carb Diets Have Got it Wrong." The Paleo / Low Carb Diet might work for some people, but I am firmly convinced that people who train (especially with KBs - S&S) need carbohydrates to replenish glycogen levels, and glucose is needed by the liver to convert T4 thyroid hormone into the active, usable form of thyroid hormone (free T3).
  2. Chronically depleted glycogen levels also result in low serotonin. I started using 5-HTP (50mg) about 30 minutes before I go to sleep. The first couple nights I took it, I could tell a big difference in the quality of my sleep.
  3. Glutamine - Take 2grams post- exercise. This also helped me with chronic muscle soreness due to chronic glycogen depletion. Also, take a good multivitamin to make sure you are covering all your macro/micro nutrients.
  4. Follow what Pavel, Al, and Steve have been teaching regarding performing your S&S routines or other barbell/body weight routines: Take long rests (do not get your heart rate up too high). I have been resting at least 2-3 minutes between sets of KB swings. In the Turkish Get-Ups (TGUs), I will do a TGU (left-handed) and then alternate to a TGU (right-handed) with a little rest (~15secs) in between. After I finish a set of TGUs for both right & left-hand, I will rest 4-6 minutes. The total session lasts me almost an hour with warm-up, but I recover much better and feel good the rest of the day.
  5. Try a heart rate variability application (HRV), I use "Elite HRV" in conjunction with a bluetooth heart rate transmitter (Polar). In my opinion, heart rate variability can be a good data point to determine how much stress you can absorb. I take my reading in the morning, and use it (as well as other data points) to determine my training intensity level (or whether I need to rest) for the day.
  6. Relax!...Chill out more! - Like Al and Steve have been saying, diaphragmatic breathing, relaxing walks and lots of them. In addition, try getting a massage, take an epsom salt bath, read a good book, buy a fish tank :O) Anything to help get you body in the rest, relaxation, and repair state.
I hope some of these recommendations can help you or other members on the forum who have been struggling with CFS or thyroid issues, as these recommendations have helped me tremendously. Haven't hit Simple, yet, but on my way :O)

Best Regards, Jason
Click to expand...
Thank you for your response. All good advice.
 
How long do you perform the "box breathing"?

Bro Mo said:
In my experience walking, yoga, and TGUs (weighted yoga for me) have the most positive effects on improving my hormone profile. I personally like box breathing: 3-4 count inhale, 3-4 count hold, 3-4 count exhale, 3-4 count hold.
Click to expand...
 
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