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Kettlebell Clean and Press versus Turkish Get Up

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I don't see the problem here...
Do RoP and add TGUs to the variety days (like mentioned in Pavel's Special Reports for EtK) or in your warmup - or do S&S and do some C&Ps in your warmup.

Spices vs. Main Dishes: How to Program a Proper Training Menu

Switch up your main dishes: e.g. 3 months of S&S with C&Ps in your warmup -> then 3 months of RoP with TGUs in your warmup -> then S&S again .....

That way you don't have to choose between them and you can do them all year round.
Exactly, there are articles and books that dealt with things like this before :)
 
Hello,

@berny
I did not say combine RoP with S&S
My bad ! That is what I thought at the beginning ! Sorry ;)

Besides, if we only consider GU (and no S&S), it is not a explosive move, contrary to the Clean. Shoulder ROM is different between a press and a GU. ROP is basically a pull and press program. S&S is not.
I don't understand what you are trying to say? If this is related to my post could you explain what you mean? Sorry :(

There is no problem. I was not very clear. I am sorry. What I was trying to say is that these two moves a quite different and can be taxing if too heavy loaded ;)

Kind regards,

Pet
 
I really appreciate the advice from all of you and it's all complementary and adds up to a lot of wisdom for me to make use of!

Instead of responding to everyone separately, basically what I think I'm looking for right now is a programme that preserves the daily 10X10 swings of S&S but then uses the C&P instead of the TGU or if not "instead of" then as the major move with the TGUs being the minor one. I've become terrifically impressed with the C&P with the 32kg as an explosive move that uses all major muscles of the body, and imparts "bent arm strength" which is frankly pretty important. It also strengthens the midriff more than the TGUs I think, and as a martial arts guy, I know I'm practicing a combined pulling and punching movement which is basic to most martial arts. Because I've done almost a year of S&S with the getups, and I'm doing S&S now with the 40, so I'm definitely beyond Simple, I think it just might be time to progress along the chain to a C&P+swing routine. I guess to put it more simply, I feel like the TGUs at this point are more of a cardio thing than a muscular thing. The C&P is simple, feels like a fighting move, which I like, and build POWERFUL muscles!

I don't want to lose my fitness level nor my strength if I change over, so I'm wondering if anyone could suggest how I might programme my C&Ps, and if I ought to keep doing the TGUs at all or not.

My starting assumption is that it could work something like this:

3(?) ladders of 3 C&P per arm (32kg)
10X10 swings according to the S&S protocol (40kg)

I've noticed that I have to do the C&P before the swings. I would like to have a daily routine rather than a weekly programme, in the spirit of S&S.
 
ETK ROP, using S&S as variety days. Even stick to S&S after C&P ladders if you want, just have a bit of variety with sets and reps sometimes. Get the half bodyweight press and you will be a machine in judo.
 
Whatever you choose, be patient. Both programs are great and they will teach you something. Anyway, you are going to hit your goal at some point and then you can switch to the second program.
Do not try to blend them into one, they are not designed for that, and in the end you will spend months without achieving any of your goals, get over trained and lose time. The only good thing coming out of that will be a new experience :)
 
Hello

My starting assumption is that it could work something like this:

3(?) ladders of 3 C&P per arm (32kg)
10X10 swings according to the S&S protocol (40kg)

Sounds great.

I don't want to lose my fitness level nor my strength if I change over, so I'm wondering if anyone could suggest how I might programme my C&Ps, and if I ought to keep doing the TGUs at all or not
If you do not want to lose GUs technique (and stay comfortable with your GU@32 (for e.g) I would do something like:
Monday: CP + swings
Tuesday : medium GU + swings
Wednesday : CP + swings
Thursday : medium GU + swings
Friday : CP + swings
Saturday :rest or variety
Sunday : rest

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
ETK ROP, using S&S as variety days. Even stick to S&S after C&P ladders if you want, just have a bit of variety with sets and reps sometimes. Get the half bodyweight press and you will be a machine in judo.
I was a machine job in judo just reaching Simple. :)
 
Whatever you choose, be patient. Both programs are great and they will teach you something. Anyway, you are going to hit your goal at some point and then you can switch to the second program.
Do not try to blend them into one, they are not designed for that, and in the end you will spend months without achieving any of your goals, get over trained and lose time. The only good thing coming out of that will be a new experience :)
What makes my goal a bit odd (perhaps) is that it's all about keeping in optimal strength at all times. I've been wrapping my head (and body) around a lot of the less complicated SF moves over the past year, and among those included in the SF1 programme, it seems to me that the swing, the getup, and the clean&press among them have everything I need. As for the others - the goblet squat is too weak with a kettlebell, the double clean isn't necessary if you're doing swings, the snatch is better than the swing if you've only got a lighter kettlebell, but if you have access to a heavier one you're better off with a heavy swing than with a light snatch. What S&S lacks is arm bending and unbending strength - which are covered in the C&P exercise. Evidently, for GPP it's unnecessary if you're already doing S&S, but my goal is slightly more than GPP, so it's:

  • 10X10 swings in 5 minutes with the 48kg
  • 5 getups per side in 5 minutes with the 48kg
  • One Rep Maximum of 48kg Clean&Press

I'd hope the human body is not so frail as to be unable to work towards these concurrently?
 
Why not do the RoP routine with heavy TGUs on the variety days? There is no reason to limit yourself to only one exercise if there are plenty of proven methods that allow you to do both. You are well past "Simple" and the RoP looks like the natural next step if you have no interest to stick with the minimalistic format of S&S.
This makes the most sense to me. Why choose?
 
What makes my goal a bit odd (perhaps) is that it's all about keeping in optimal strength at all times. I've been wrapping my head (and body) around a lot of the less complicated SF moves over the past year, and among those included in the SF1 programme, it seems to me that the swing, the getup, and the clean&press among them have everything I need. As for the others - the goblet squat is too weak with a kettlebell, the double clean isn't necessary if you're doing swings, the snatch is better than the swing if you've only got a lighter kettlebell, but if you have access to a heavier one you're better off with a heavy swing than with a light snatch. What S&S lacks is arm bending and unbending strength - which are covered in the C&P exercise. Evidently, for GPP it's unnecessary if you're already doing S&S, but my goal is slightly more than GPP, so it's:

  • 10X10 swings in 5 minutes with the 48kg
  • 5 getups per side in 5 minutes with the 48kg
  • One Rep Maximum of 48kg Clean&Press

I'd hope the human body is not so frail as to be unable to work towards these concurrently?
@Kozushi , I don't know where you are standing considering clean & press technique, but if you are not really good with presses I think you will have to squeeze in at least one pressing session a week. Heavy TGU-s will certainly help with that goal.

Anyway, just training for these three goals will be GPP :)

It all depends on how much time (days a week, hours per day) are you willing to spend. Your goals are doable for 3-5 sessions a week with only 1-1,5 hour per session if you ask me.
 
@Kozushi I'm pretty new to strength training but I've noticed you mention a few times in this thread you're looking for power in your judo.

From what I've learned recently power and strength require different stimulus. Things like throwing medicine balls and sled pushes. As hard and fast as you can 3 sets of 8 reps twice a week. Resting 5 mins between sets.

I'm thinking it could be done along with S&S a few times a week to keep your strength topped up and progressing.

My plan when I reach simple hopefully in a few months (finger crossed :)) is to cycle full-time S&S with S&S and power sessions every 4 weeks.

I remember it does mention it in S&S book about F=MxA and force production with a KB being biggest around 30% bodyweight so although it's always better to have a bigger strength base you can produce more force by working on the otherside of the equation too. Helpfully 30% of my lean BW is 32KG so this will work nicely with reaching simple.

Like I said I'm still learning about this but thought it might help you and give you something to read up on.
 
Hello,

From what I've learned recently power and strength require different stimulus
With ROP, you will work on power thanks to the clean, and strength with press / chin ups.

I remember it does mention it in S&S book about F=MxA
Once again, you are right.

With S&S, GU will give you strength, whereas swings will make you powerful (even if they also work on strength).

As "figures" if you wish (but it is not a general rule):
I weigh 64kg. I reached Simple (swings + gu). I deadlift 120, so almost twice bdw, without working on it at all.

Keep swinging ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,


With ROP, you will work on power thanks to the clean, and strength with press / chin ups.


Once again, you are right.

With S&S, GU will give you strength, whereas swings will make you powerful (even if they also work on strength).

As "figures" if you wish (but it is not a general rule):
I weigh 64kg. I reached Simple (swings + gu). I deadlift 120, so almost twice bdw, without working on it at all.

Keep swinging ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'

That's some sterling work, congrats!

At a risk of taking this in a Men's Health type direction (forgive me) what physique changes did you get from reaching Simple?
 
Hello,

@MatthewBianco
That's some sterling work, congrats!
Thanks ! 18 months of dedication, but 18 months of pleasure being stronger than ever, without fatigue or pain.

what physique changes did you get from reaching Simple?
With an appropriate diet (I do not eat a lot of neither fat or sugar), my abs are clearly visible, my legs (quads) grew, and my shoulders (high torso) are more solids / massives.

This is unwanted consequences. I mean S&S is not a bodybuilding program. However, my girlfriend still appreciate ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I've been doing two ladders of Clean and Press before my S&S workout for several days now and it seems to be a valid "add-on" and also works as a warmup or drill to get me motivated for the swings and getups. They don't tire me out at all for the swings, but I do notice having done the C&Ps when I do the getups afterwards, and I like this because I think it contributes to more muscle growth. I switch from the 32 for the C&P to the 40 for S&S. If I went on a car trip and just brought my one 32 along with me in my trunk, I'd probably do more C&P with it before hand to make the S&S count more, as I'm far beyond "Simple" with the programme.

Still, I in no way think the C&P stuff needs to be added onto S&S, which is already as complete as it needs to be. And, the getup really does already have a press in it, the floor press, even though it's not much compared with a standing press or a bench press. Just, anyways, I think the C&Ps add a bit of nuance to my strength that I want. I don't at all think that C&P can "replace" getups in my workout. Getups are so much more of an exercise, really a string of exercises woven together like a karate kata. It's like comparing one karate move with one whole karate kata. Which has more in it? It's obvious.

Anyhow, it's now snow season in Canada and I'll be testing out my newfound strength by shovelling copious amounts of snow.

Two asides:

  • Regarding S&S and getting in shape: yes, it's made me look "hot" according to my wife. So, it works for this, as I wanted it to. I used to be a fat fillintheblank. Not any more. I look great (and better than the videos I posted a few months back - since I hadn't worked out for 5 days before posting them as I was sick.)
  • Regarding S&S and judo: I kind of hate to state this, but I felt that S&S so completely improved my judo and gave me such tremendous sport-specific strength, that it took away my desire to continue training in judo, given I've got lots of family responsibilities anyhow. In short, S&S taught me more judo than judo! That's a real WTH (what the hell) effect!
 
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