MikeTheBear
Level 6 Valued Member
I also like this one. It's a basic but solid ladder protocol. I would guess that it could be used for a double KB C+PP as well. KB Express uses the same ladder protocol for the snatch program.
Kettlebell Clean and Push Press Programming Recommendations
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6was9
Level 2 Valued Member
Keeping up with the topic of simplicity, how do you measure progress for a given lift? More reps with the same weight, more sets in the same time interval, heavier weight, for the same or higher sets or reps, same reps/sets in shorter time interval. Improvement in one of these parameters leads to the improvement in another. There are several numerous basic principles of how to do it, none are a rocket science. Set the goal and progress accordingly.
A "professionally designed program" would be me hiring a coach who will guide me and adjust my training to my level of training, age, injury history, will tweak it to fit my ability to recover and fit it in with a sport I may be doing. That's where complexity comes in. For a stand alone GPP program though simple progression goals will do just fine. Until you hit a certain performance level, then complexity becomes unavoidable. But then again, if the goal is not a sport where you can be the first, the usefulness of GPP has limits.
I get it why many people want to take the thought out of the equation. Get to gym, hit the numbers, go home. There is also this idea that someone knows more than you and you should listen to them. I personally got burned more often than not when I believed that. But even that is not relevant. For me the process itself is part of the goal. It's like hunting: you can get a guide who will take you to where deer are, you shoot one, get the trophy and be proud of yourself. Easier yet, go to the local shop and get as much venison as you want. Or you can spend a few days looking for one and maybe not getting a kill for several trips. But the reward to do it all by yourself is way more than just eating a steak on a weekend. Now you know you are a predator.
As several posters already said, to each his own. I would just say, don't shortchange yourself, designing a training program is not hard if you give it a bit of a thought. Again, just my opinion.
A "professionally designed program" would be me hiring a coach who will guide me and adjust my training to my level of training, age, injury history, will tweak it to fit my ability to recover and fit it in with a sport I may be doing. That's where complexity comes in. For a stand alone GPP program though simple progression goals will do just fine. Until you hit a certain performance level, then complexity becomes unavoidable. But then again, if the goal is not a sport where you can be the first, the usefulness of GPP has limits.
I get it why many people want to take the thought out of the equation. Get to gym, hit the numbers, go home. There is also this idea that someone knows more than you and you should listen to them. I personally got burned more often than not when I believed that. But even that is not relevant. For me the process itself is part of the goal. It's like hunting: you can get a guide who will take you to where deer are, you shoot one, get the trophy and be proud of yourself. Easier yet, go to the local shop and get as much venison as you want. Or you can spend a few days looking for one and maybe not getting a kill for several trips. But the reward to do it all by yourself is way more than just eating a steak on a weekend. Now you know you are a predator.
As several posters already said, to each his own. I would just say, don't shortchange yourself, designing a training program is not hard if you give it a bit of a thought. Again, just my opinion.
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Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I guess my thought is that there are three dimensions that I would measure a requirement for programming knowledge against.
1. Specificity / complexity of the goal .
2. Reproducibility across a desired population segment . Broadest being most difficult. Single person being least difficult.
3. Optimization of the rate of progression.
For someone like myself ...
1. I have very simple and generalized goals.
2. I am only concerned with myself.
3. And, my rate of progression is with respect to no specific time horizon. So, keeping things generally pointed in the right direction is about as good as can be measured.
Hence, the program I cobbled together, using mostly guesswork and ignorance worked out well, probably not better than chance.
But I wouldn't trust myself programming for a friend. I would point them elsewhere posthaste .
That said: 50-100 reps 2 - 4x week is probably gonna get you headed in the right direction.
Good analogy.
I'm in both camps on this one. I agree that professionally-designed programs are hard to beat, and I agree that basic programming is within reach for anyone and we can learn a lot by doing it. I have designed a few TSC-prep programs for myself, and learned a lot in the process of designing and executing them. I've also followed some established programs (S&S, 5/3/1, PTTP, Starting Strength NLP) which I try to do by the book / as designed, and I've had custom programs written for my by 3 coaches (kettlebell/strength/SFG prep, barbell strength, and Olympic Lifting). Each have their advantages. I wouldn't even add "and disadvantages" because it's really about the strengths (so to speak) of each, and capitalizing on those as best you can.
For any of these -- a consistent Training Log is your best friend! That's how you learn from the process.
Chrisdavisjr
Level 7 Valued Member
For what it's worth, everything I've learned through trial and error doing my own programs, I could have learned a lot faster following someone else's.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
I have seen a lot of trainees back in the "day" who kind of did their own thing so to speak. Monday was bench day, Tuesday arms, etc. doing those old split routines talked about in "muscle and fiction" magazine....you know, the ones that said just eat well and you can attain the muscle mass of Mr.
Olympia and all the BS that went with it! Then like three years later these same guys were actually benching less than when they started or also too often injured. I fell into that a bit myself and I too injured myself.
Upon discovering kettlebells it rekindled my strength training interests but until I read and applied "Enter the Kettlebell" I didn't really follow a standard program with them. Sticking with the program (s) in Pavel's book saw me make slow but very steady progress. Upon reaching the goals I realized I need to stick to programs as written and results will follow.
I've never been an instructor and have no desire to be one and I've said it before these instructors on this forum are well schooled and dedicated and certainly have attained far more knowledge of programming than I could imagine and I've made great training gains during the last 10 years using the information they impart.
I do agree with @6was9 in one aspect....some "programs" that are out there are pure garbage and will lead their followers to the "land of frustration and injury" even though some well known celebrities have endorsed them! My observation as a home trainee who's followed many programs from SF/RKC, that type of crap doesn't occur here. I trust the instructors here and the material they put out.
Olympia and all the BS that went with it! Then like three years later these same guys were actually benching less than when they started or also too often injured. I fell into that a bit myself and I too injured myself.
Upon discovering kettlebells it rekindled my strength training interests but until I read and applied "Enter the Kettlebell" I didn't really follow a standard program with them. Sticking with the program (s) in Pavel's book saw me make slow but very steady progress. Upon reaching the goals I realized I need to stick to programs as written and results will follow.
I've never been an instructor and have no desire to be one and I've said it before these instructors on this forum are well schooled and dedicated and certainly have attained far more knowledge of programming than I could imagine and I've made great training gains during the last 10 years using the information they impart.
I do agree with @6was9 in one aspect....some "programs" that are out there are pure garbage and will lead their followers to the "land of frustration and injury" even though some well known celebrities have endorsed them! My observation as a home trainee who's followed many programs from SF/RKC, that type of crap doesn't occur here. I trust the instructors here and the material they put out.
6was9
Level 2 Valued Member
Very important point, in my opinion.
I actually wrote about that subject in an article that was published today!
Finding the “Easy” in Simple and Sinister…and Life | StrongFirst
I believe one of the secrets to thriving in life is seeking out difficult challenges, and then finding the “easy” within them. Let’s think about your diet, for example. Do you want to suffer, deprive yourself, starve, and hate the foods you get to eat in order to improve your body composition...
www.strongfirst.com
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Great article Anna!
Interesting to hear you also made some progress with A+A and came in from the side.
What would you recommend for TGU please? Other than time, patience and owning the weight...[/QUOTE]
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Thanks @Pete L !
My best tips for getting the most out of the TGU, assuming they're being done per the program and are technically sound (both things that can go awry, so worth ensuring), are 1) take your time with them, pausing a few seconds at each position including the elbow, "OWN EACH POSITION" as they say, and 2) do them as if you have a heavier weight than what you have, requiring just a little more tension and focus - getting ahead of the challenge.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
For someone not following a preset programme v a random directionless dog's dinner of trial and error is somewhere in between.
A basic solid template and run with it for 6 weeks or so.
5x5 or 20 mins of singles (strength aerobics).
Get a baseline. Pepper in extra rep or more volume.
If immersed into it after 6 weeks add in some waves or start wavy anyway if you know your limits/recovery based on the frequency you've selected or imposed by.
5x5 is fab.
You just need to count to 5.
So easy to vary, as is strength aerobics, too.
Both approaches have blog articles on the site.
A basic solid template and run with it for 6 weeks or so.
5x5 or 20 mins of singles (strength aerobics).
Get a baseline. Pepper in extra rep or more volume.
If immersed into it after 6 weeks add in some waves or start wavy anyway if you know your limits/recovery based on the frequency you've selected or imposed by.
5x5 is fab.
You just need to count to 5.
So easy to vary, as is strength aerobics, too.
Both approaches have blog articles on the site.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for answering. I have been adding 10" pauses at floor, top and then floor again but I will try spreading across all the positions as you suggest, thanks.
I've also done additional sets, as per StrongFirst Kettlebell (SFKB?) working up to 16 sets in 20' so far.
My roll to elbow is definitely my weak point (long torso and chicken legs are the excuse I kid myself with). I've been doing some multi reps to elbow and I also intend to try these with my newly arrived 36 kg bell.
Thanks again.
Stefan Olsson
Level 4 Valued Member
Does any one have a solid plan for jumping to the next weight? I can CnP two 16s about 10 times. Can press two 16s about 7-8 times. I can CnP two 24s one time (its an all out effort but without Body english).
My goal would be to run Strong! with two 24s.
My goal would be to run Strong! with two 24s.
I would think a pressing program using a single 24 kg might be a good next step for you. See "bilateral deficit" - you can press more with one arm than half of your two-armed press.
-S-
Stefan Olsson
Level 4 Valued Member
You are not the first one to suggest that path.
@Dries S suggested the following
Perhaps I should go back to single bell work and build Strength before embarking on double work.
Thank you gents!
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barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
You might wanna check out this post...
Kettlebell - "Giant 1.0"
You're probably right. Today was an interesting one; After not being able to a press a single 16K until two weeks ago (coming from a shoulder injury), today was 3.0's Day 3 of Week 1 with 16K+16K. I replaced a couple of reps with 16K+20K, alternating arms, and both went up with no issues. My...
www.strongfirst.com
Simply strong
Level 4 Valued Member
Google the “Dunning–Kruger effect”
6was9
Level 2 Valued Member
The Dunning-Kruger effect: Misunderstood, misrepresented, overused and … non-existent?
Most of us are indeed not very good at assessing personal limitation. But there is also a very real overreliance on experts.
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Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
However... if the experts collaborate to form an organisation, draw on historic empirical data, publish documents and put their names to them, accept feedback and develop standards...
Then I am happy to rely on them ?
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