Clean & Jerk vs Snatch

Discussion in 'Masters (50+ years old)' started by KIWI5, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    The 'Valery Swing' is interesting, his neck stays forward, in flexion during the movement-as far as looks go- this move definitely qualifies for 'uglystyle', at least in my eyes. I can see how the upper back would be heavily involved- I'm not sure you would (or could) do this with double KB's? Geoff Neuperts' photo for 'Kettlebell Strong' is an amazing display of flexibility and strength on his part, I agree with Kettlebelephant- this would be tough if not dangerous for most people to achieve. Having said that, the instruction and progression for the Dbl C&J in Kettlebell Strong are excellent and are helping me greatly. Hec Gutierrez's has similar training instructions and excellent videos on this move as well. For me, the Dbl High Pull is proving to be a bit easier to learn so far...
     
  2. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    After another training session with the DBL High Pull- I am in love. What a great move- especially pairing with a DBl C&P and a DBL Squat. :) My thoracic 'zone' felt brilliant afterwards. :)
     
  3. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    The following is a quote from the honourable Steve Maxwell...
    " I recommend the kettlebell High-Pull exercise, because with the High-Pull movement, you're still getting the pulling action at the top -- you're still bringing the KB overhead, so it requires almost as much energy as the Snatch -- but without the negative impact forces on the shoulder and elbow.
    At one time, I did a fair share of the KB Snatch, but I noticed that even with good form, it was pretty hard on the hands, wrists, elbows, and shoulders. Further, I noticed that from a conditioning point of view, I got just as much out of KB Swings as Snatches, nor could I discern any particular benefit the Snatch conferred over the Swing -- especially with high Swings.
    I get around quite a bit; I travel the world and visit with people of all kinds in the fitness and martial arts worlds. The injury problems I've observed in KB people from all over are predominantly associated with the Kettlebell Snatch. This commonality has made me begin to question the risk-to-benefit ratio in performing such a ballistic, high-force, momentum-based lift" ------ I'll bet Steve never gets invited to Strongfirst BBQ's with such heresy!ROFL
     
  4. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    I did and I am currently doing a fair share of the KB Snatch. I am into it for about two years now. Fairly heavy, with accumulation of fairly high volume over weeks and months. I deem myself fortunate enough to be guided to it by @aciampa immersing into A+A philosophy:

    by keeping the reps low recovery plenty, focus can be laid upon the set up. For me a repeat has many set ups: first when grabbing the bell for the first rep. The snatch has an aim: the bell arriving at lockout at once with an extended arm on top of a straight posture of my body. I enjoy the lockout when the bell flies almost effortlessly and the bell rests on stacked upon wrist, elbow, shoulder hip, down into my feet. This lockout is the set up at lockout is what I am looking for the next rep: there I have a little bit of time to kind of think through the snatch, concentrating on a crucial eccentric, to propel the bell to the next set up at lockout. I do not rush through my repeats. This is not "conditioning". For me A+A snatching is strength, power, mobility, auto regulation, developing recovery ability. The thing I get my beating with can be my hands, frequent volume snatching it is unavoidable, I can decide to rest another day which can make a huge difference to my hands. I am n=1 and almost 41 years, so no newbie joints.

    I did some A+A sessions with it, and as I said in my first post here it is the most powerful full body move one can do with these bells for some reps. There is no pause in it, just explosion, extension and deceleration.
     
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  5. Kettlebelephant

    Kettlebelephant Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    The snatch doesn't hurt your *insert bodypart*, it's the way you snatch that is hurting you.
    This statement is true for everyone, even long time practioners and instructors.
    I respect Steve Maxwells views on a lot of things, but from Joe Rogans podcast (where Steve is a frequent guest) I know that he has dealt with a good amount of shoulder issues in his life (from training and from being a martial artist for decades). So he had pre-existing issues that alter his personal experience.
    He was part of the original RKC in the early 2000s, which means that by the time the he released the following clip of him (in 2008) he was snatching for almost 10 years or even longer and he was an instructor for years.
    I highlighted a statement in the quote. Look at the video. If he considers that good form than despite his accomplishments in the KB world he still doesn't know what good form is (and thus can't recognize good or bad form in others).
    It looks like he's jerking out his shoulder on every lockout...
    No wonder it's hurting him.


    You don't have to snatch. The swing will yield a lot of the same benefits and is easier to learn.
    If you don't want to spend the time to perfect the snatch to avoid the issues Maxwell describes than that is fine, but don't discard it from the start just because some guru, instructor or whatever says so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  6. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts


    One of the things I noticed when using both the high pull and the as-taught Valery swing that are very different from the snatch - the former two can be tweaked like a push press to generate variable amounts of assistance from the ballistic portion. If you want you can really blast the traps and middle delt or you can juice the hinge a little.
     
  7. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    North Coast Miller- although I only had a fun 'playing around' training session with the Dbl High Pull- I can feel the impact in my traps/rhomboids, also my core. Replacing the snatch with the Dbl High Pull is my choice now- I will be starting Hector Gutierrez's 701A program in June/July - the Dbl High Pull will slot in nicely as a replacement to the Dbl Snatch. Somewhere in the world, Steve Maxwell will be nodding wisely at my choice...LOL(y) I should note that I had long since decided to not train the snatch- but Steve's experience with other trainees certainly helps cement my decision.
     
    North Coast Miller likes this.
  8. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    That's a very valid point.....exactly as how tweaked my shoulder!
    You could extend the form issue with injuries a result to any exercise or movement and that will have an influence on your view of it. It'll make you scared too, hesitant and lacking in confidence when attempting it again.
    I have the same thinking with the pistol squat.....I could do them, got injured and can't do them, yet stronger and more mobile now with good ankle and knee rom. It's kind of easier, mentally, to consider it dangerous! It's a self fulfilling thing.. .
     
  9. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts


    Even before I knew his feelings on the topic I'd largely eliminated the snatch with exception of the occasional circuit workout. Not necessarily because I felt it was detrimental - it IS a great exercise of itself - but because it was bothersome in other ways and easily worked around. Is the only lift I do where I have to butter up my finger and remove my wedding band. Even folks that swear by it have to take specific actions to preserve hand health.
     
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  10. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    Looking at one video of Steve Maxwell (note: ONE) from about a decade ago- and attempting to judge his opinion on the snatch based on this one video, well-this gave me my first belly laugh of the day. Fantastic! I'm not defending Steve- his experience and career speak for themselves.
     
  11. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    Ladies and gentlemen, the one-arm kettlebell snatch is part of our instructor program because we feel everyone (excepting, of course, those who are injured in a way that prevents it) can learn to perform this movement with good form and safely. Let's also note that safety and good form go hand-in-hand in everything we teach at StrongFirst.

    So I don't think we can say there is anything _wrong_ with the kettlebell snatch, while at the same time we _can_ say the swing is more of a movement for everyone than the snatch.

    -S-
     
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  12. KIWI5

    KIWI5 More than 300 posts

    Well put SteveFriedes- if I was 20 years old again and fresh out of Airborne school, (assuming I was smart enough to know about KB's!) I would absolutely have the snatch in my training..
     

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