Coffee, fasting and mitochondria

Marc

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Yes, the insulin model is way overblown. Most diabetics are not adviced to fast anyway but rather have 3-4 meals per day. So they actually don't even have a need to put some oils in their coffee (thinking about this actually hurts bad every time I do). And for healthy folks there is absolutely no benefit in oiling or buttering their coffee aside from adding calories. Btw: Calorie control is a lot more important in terms of overall health than insulin.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Btw: Calorie control is a lot more important in terms of overall health than insulin.
Yes to that too.
The issue is 'fasting' in terms of what is the reason for it and how it is defined. And how that definition gets warped and factored into what people define as a 'healthy' diet for them. And to what extent then does that diet affect, positively or negatively, mitochondrial health. Is eating a particular food/drink supportive of mitochondrial health or not?
Must admit, it's something I rarely consider as a pro or con!
I'm a very moderate coffee drinker, now and then, here and there, take it or leave it.
It's a very odd take on modern eating trends that coffee drinkers can now ask....'I'll have a moccamitochondria please, 2 sugars'? It's not dissimilar to red wine and resveratrol - totally rat arsed but with fine mitochondrial function.
There's always a flipside.
The flipside to coffee is how often it is abused to mask fatigue and deal with short term stress. I'm not being judgemental here, we all suffer from 24/7 lifestyle issues and pressure so the matter of populations is really important to its effects, healthy ones or otherwise.
Perhaps then there is a hierarchy - supportive to health if already healthy but less so if unhealthy, especially if stressed and underslept.
Meeting up with friends for a coffee? - perhaps that is where the health benefits exist, creating social contact and the well being that that fosters. I would place great value to that over autophagy and leave that to getting a good kip....as long as I've not had a coffee!
 

Marc

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I agree. Of course you don't have to drink coffee, nor do you have to fast. All those things might have a benefit but I make a bold claim of stating that all those benefits are miniscule compared to the well established cornerstones of a healthy lifestyle like appropriate caloric intake, sleep/stress management and regular exercise.
If you're not too much into coffee, don't force yourself to drink it. If fasting is a pain in the a#@ for you, just have breakfast.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
but I make a bold claim of stating that all those benefits are miniscule compared to the well established cornerstones of a healthy lifestyle like appropriate caloric intake, sleep/stress management and regular exercise.
Seconded.
 

Dasho

Triple-Digit Post Count
I guess I should have added that
a) I am not looking to lose weight, i.e. a breakfast that includes some fat and protein is fine by me
b) I am not diabetic, so insulin is more or less a non-issue
c) YMMV, but I enjoy coconut oil in my coffee. I cannot claim this for butter :/

Q&D mentions extending the fasted state beyond the training session, and I was wondering if the benefits of doing so are worth foregoing what I usually enjoy with my coffee.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Mistreating coffee by putting in coconut oil, butter, MCT oil or any other lipid will do exactly zero other than adding kilocalories.
Adding Calories

I've been on Ketogenic Diet for right at three and a half years. So, my diet revolves around a high fat diet; usually keeping my fat intake around 70% of my daily calorie intake.

One of the ways I maintain that high a percentage of fat intake is with oils, butter and having a Diet Cream Soda (mixing cream in with a diet drink).

With that said, "Bullet Proof Coffee" appears to simply increase fat intake/calories. I don't see any other benefit to it, either.

...coffee and fat to keep the fat burning going.
Keto Diet

Yea, something like a Keto Diet (high fat) triggers the body to utilize body fat.

Intermittent Fasting promotes the same effect, as you know. over a shorter time frame.

Coffee

Yes, the caffeine in coffee increases fat burning to a certain degree.

Caffeine is also effective for increasing athletic performance.

This bring me to an interesting side bar on...

Nicotine

Research on nicotine alone indicates it provide some health benefits and sports performance benefits.

It also increase the fat burning process. That is why Bodybuilder sometimes use Nicotine Patches.

Some research indicates it can improve physical sports performance other research indicate it does not.

However, nicotine does appear to increase cognition, improve you mental skills.

Nicotine has been shown to increase cognitive skill in individual with Dementia, Alzheimers, Parkinson's.

One of the benefits in sports is that it appears to increase the focus on skilled movements and other parts of "The game".

The Bad Rap

The bad rap that nicotine has gotten is from hanging around with the wrong crowd, cigarettes.

Cigarettes contain 500 - 700 bad chemicals. When the cigarette is burned, those chemicals are magnified by 10.

Secondly, nicotine in high dosages, as with chain smoker, is addictive.

However, nicotine alone in small doses of gum or a lozenges elicits a positive response. Dosages of around 2 mg of nicotine gum or a lozenge works for most individuals.

As the saying goes, "The poison is in the dose".

Then this model is distorted and misapplied to even a healthy athletic population where 'fat burning' becomes the be all and end all of performance/health/longevity/finance/success, take your pick.
Distorted and Misapplied

Distortion and misapplication are due to a lack of knowledge.

Carbohydrates increase insulin production. When insulin production is elevated, it block fat burning.

By maintaining lower insulin levels through a greater part of the day, more fat is utilized for energy in lower level activity.

Secondly, maintaining a low carbohydrate diet for Insulin Resistant individual definitely helps with weight/fat loss.

Insulin Sensitivity individual can pretty much eat, as they like.

Some of the distortion is that many individual believe they can eat as much as they want on a Ketogenic Diet, which is incorrect.

Many think they are on a Ketogenic Diet but are really on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate diet; never in ketosis.

Athletic Performance

One of the issue for many individual is that training on the Ketogenic Diet requires a modified approach. However, few individuals realize this and their performance suffers.

With that said, a well written Ketogenic Diet Training Program is the key to optimizing performance and results.

"Health/Longevity/Finance/Success"

All are obtainable on a Ketogenic Diet, providing the diet and training is on target.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
I put a teaspoon or so of something called Brain Octane Oil in my coffee once or twice a day. And a sprinkle of ground cinnamon. The oil tastes like nothing, the cinnamon tastes good.

-S-
 

Molson

Triple-Digit Post Count
I haven’t read the book yet, so please excuse the question.

Is fasted training prescribed specifically for Q&D style training (explosive, fast twitch fiber as I understand) or any type of strength training actually?
 

Oscar

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I haven’t read the book yet, so please excuse the question.

Is fasted training prescribed specifically for Q&D style training (explosive, fast twitch fiber as I understand) or any type of strength training actually?
For Q&D style specifically. Its said to reinforce the specific effects of Q&D.

There are many types of training that go well with fast and some others that not, also depending on your goals. What do you have in mind?
 

Molson

Triple-Digit Post Count
For Q&D style specifically. Its said to reinforce the specific effects of Q&D.

There are many types of training that go well with fast and some others that not, also depending on your goals. What do you have in mind?
Many thanks Oscar for your feedback. I’m doing S&S and experimenting with IF (long term health reasons mostly) and thus I’m wondering how to best set it all up in terms of meals/training schedule. Or rather actually the other way round, my life did set this up already which leaves me wondering about effects ;).
 

Oscar

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Many thanks Oscar for your feedback. I’m doing S&S and experimenting with IF (long term health reasons mostly) and thus I’m wondering how to best set it all up in terms of meals/training schedule. Or rather actually the other way round, my life did set this up already which leaves me wondering about effects ;).
I've done S&S while doing IF and it went well. I trained mostly in the morning before my first meal.

I have even done it during longer fasts. No problem.

I'd say some of the benefits mentioned in Q&D might apply. Also the benefits of cardio in fasted state might apply somewhat. You might get better at using fat. Give it a try.
 

Molson

Triple-Digit Post Count
I've done S&S while doing IF and it went well. I trained mostly in the morning before my first meal.

I have even done it during longer fasts. No problem.

I'd say some of the benefits mentioned in Q&D might apply. Also the benefits of cardio in fasted state might apply somewhat. You might get better at using fat. Give it a try.
Thanks again. That’s basically the set up I had been in for a last two months. Works fine for most of the time. It’s good to know though that it actually makes sense!
 

Provx

Triple-Digit Post Count
This is a good topic. I have been trying to fast but the absence of coffee is more brutal for me than the lack of food.

i like the idea of neuperts 24 hour diet, however adding in the gelatin to coffee is kinda annoying.

the other thing that is kinda annoying is after trying keto for 2 separate 6 month spans my body now seems to reject steak and bacon. This leaves not a whole lot of protein options to keep dinner interesting. There is only so much fish and chicken a body can handle
 

Marc

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I don't really think that it will make a noticable difference if you train fasted or if you don't. The most crucial aspect in metabolic improvements is energy balance. There is no hard evidence that fasting offers additional benefits if calories are equated. If you like IF go for it, if you perform better with eating before a session than do that. Don't expect anything magical or significant from forcing yourself not to eat before training.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Curious how many actual longer terms studies have been done.
Thib has come out consistently against AM training in fasted state by asserting it:
does burn more fat while training, but
fat utilization tends to drop over the next 24 hours compared to training non-fasted.

He also feels pretty strongly that it does a poor job of maintaining/increasing muscle mass.

On a personal note I'd say @Marc has nailed it:
I don't really think that it will make a noticable difference if you train fasted or if you don't... Don't expect anything magical or significant from forcing yourself not to eat before training.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Dietary Practices Adopted by Track-and-Field Athletes: Gluten-Free, Low FODMAP, Vegetarian, and Fasting in: International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism Volume 29 Issue 2 (2019)

There is the population argument for IF - who is it good for? Health/longevity, performance athletes, fat loss/weight loss/physique goals? Different but similar perhaps in some way, different and entirely different in others. It all gets fudged in the health and fitness quagmire.

The above is focused on track and field athletes. In general the paper is a good overview of many dietary approaches but IF in particular:

"Evidence is lacking to support any benefit of fasting compared with conventional techniques for improving body composition or metabolic parameters in track-and-field athletes. Nutrition strategies should be planned in advance to avoid possible performance decrements during obligatory fasting."

".....Any improvements in lipid profile, inflammatory markers, glucose metabolism, or cardiovascular function are short-lived and are not clinically significant (Barkia et al., 2011; Memari et al., 2011; Stockman et al., 2018). These findings prevent using nonobligatory fasting practices within standard practice evidence-based recommendations."

In a reference by Aird, et al 2018, it states:

"Fasted exercise increased post-exercise circulating FFAs (P = .023) compared to fed exercise. It is evidenced that pre-exercise feeding blunted signaling in skeletal muscle and adipose tissue implicated in regulating components of metabolism, including mitochondrial adaptation and substrate utilization. This review's findings support the hypothesis that the fasted and fed conditions can divergently influence exercise metabolism and performance. Pre-exercise feeding bolsters prolonged aerobic performance, while seminal evidence highlights potential beneficial metabolic adaptations that fasted exercise may induce in peripheral tissues."

The science in inconclusive - lots of mays, mights that those mays and mights depend on the population.

I'm perfectly happy sitting on the fence that low level easy stuff is fine fasted - when performance isn't an issue but not so when there is high demand of energy but that is entirely subjective defining 'high intensity' I know. I view, rightly or wrongly, S&S Q&D etc as high intensity, others may not. Sprinting is, no argument. And, performance endurance events (v easy MAF run in the woods listening to bird song).

There is too the definition of 'fed'. A massive bucket of pasta and pizza v a banana, that varies a lot too!
 

Bauer

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I think @ali raises an important point: Population. And also timing in the training cycle.

Here is a quote from Peter Park's article: Training Endurance Athletes for the Long Season | StrongFirst

Peter Park said:
Nutrition-wise, I have had the most success with clients following a low carbohydrate (for an endurance athlete), high fat, and moderate protein diet during the base period. I recommend keeping the carbs to about 100 grams (give or take) for the entire base period.

The purpose is to force the body to shift to using fat for its primary energy source instead of carbohydrate
s. With little glycogen available, the body is forced to get the fatty acids mobilized from fat stores to be used for energy. When I see a client at the end of this period eat a breakfast such as eggs, bacon, and some avocado, do a three- or four-hour ride with only water, and have no blood sugar issues, I know they have become the fat-burning machine I want.
Likewise here is an excerpt from an Uphill Athelete client:
Special Operations Training: The Aerobic Way — Uphill Athlete
We started with six weeks of aerobic base-building. Four or five mornings a week I woke up and did a fasted 60- or 90-minute run, then on the weekends I’d get out in the mountains for 2 to 4 hours at a stretch. (...)
Then the nine weeks were up, and it was time to put this training to the test. Almost immediately, I felt that I was able to recover better than a lot of my peers. I attributed that in large part to my aerobic base, but also to the nutrition plan I’d developed with John. He helped me map out exactly what to consume during and right after each test—including throughout the long event. If I was rucking, I would eat energy chews and put some carbohydrate powder in my water bottle. If I was going into a lower-output activity and had more than 15 minutes between events, I would eat almond butter or something with a higher fat content. The military isn’t great at teaching endurance nutrition: where I fueled every chance I got, nearly everyone else just ate the occasional handful of crackers and called it good.
Thus, training fasted (or low carb/paleo) can be a tool to teach the body fat burning during aerobic base building. This is different, however, from the events themselves and other types or phases of training.

Rebecca Dent said:
We advocate a lot of fasted training, but on the days you want to go fast by tapping into your maximal intensities, your goal climb or race, you definitely want to eat a high-carbohydrate diet.
Nutrition and Fat Adaptation — Uphill Athlete

However:
Rebecca Dent said:
Training with low carbohydrate availability places additional stresses on the body and has been shown to reduce immune function and increase the risk of illness (2). It is therefore vital that adequate recovery takes place.
Nutrition Strategies to Maximize Fat Adaptation — Uphill Athlete
 
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offwidth

More than 5000 posts
For decades now I have trained in fasted (or mostly fasted) states. And by training I mean serious locomotive endurance training activities lasting 1 to 6 or more hrs long.

However on race day or climb it's caffeine and carbs all the way...
 
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