Coffee, fasting and mitochondria

kennycro@@aol.com

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Rebecca Dent said:We advocate a lot of fasted training, but on the days you want to go fast by tapping into your maximal intensities, your goal climb or race, you definitely want to eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

Nutrition and Fat Adaptation — Uphill Athlete
Muscle Glycogen Storage On A Ketogenic Diet

Research by Volek and Phinney found muscle glycogen storage on a Ketogenic Diet is the same as on a high carbohydrate diet, once the individual is Keto Adapted.

The Premise of Metabolic Inflexibility

1) High Carbohydrate Diets make you "Glucose Dependent". The body utilizing glucose well but is inefficient at burning ketones/body fat.

2) Ketogenic Diets make you "Ketone Dependent". The body utilizing ketones but is inefficient at burning glucose.

This seem logical. It would appear that both diet make you Metabolically Inflexible.

However, research indicates that it may not be the case.

A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Combined with 6-Weeks of Crossfit Training Improves Body Composition and Performance | ClinMed International Library | International Journal of Sports and Exercise Medicine

Despite the significant reduction in carbohydrate intake and slight decrease in caloric intake, the LCKD group was able to adhere to CrossFit training at least 4 times per week with no adverse side effects reported. Additionally, there were no significant differences in performance or power outcomes between the LCKD (Low Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet) and CON group after 6 weeks of CrossFit training.

High Rates of Fat Oxidation Induced by a Low-Carbohydrate, High-Fat Diet, Do Not Impair 5-km Running Performance in Competitive Recreational Athletes

It is argued that athletes eating a LCHF Low Carbohydrate High Fat) diet develop impaired “metabolic flexibility” (Burke, 2015). This experiment shows the opposite. On the HCLF (High Carbhydrate Low Fat) diet subjects showed an almost complete dependence on carbohydrate oxidation during exercise at >80%VO2max. In contrast when eating the LCHF (Low Carbohydrate High Fat) diet, athletes retained the capacity to oxidize both fat and carbohydrate at high rates during exercise at that intensity whilst maintaining their performance capacity. Superior metabolic flexibility would likely be beneficial during ultradistance events as maximal fat oxidation rate measured during a graded exercise test is a significant predictor of performance time during the Ironman Triathlon (Frandsen et al., 2017).

These studies show that a substantial contribution of fat oxidation to energy use even at very high exercise intensities, may have been overlooked in the past.

SNR #82: Dr. Jacob Wilson – Ketogenic Diets, Strength & Body Composition

http://sigmanutrition.com/episode82/

For some reason, this interview is no longer on line. However, below are some of notes...

Interval Sprint Training
18:40 seconds minute mark

a) Sprint 1: 40% Glycogen.

b) Sprint 6: 9% Glucose, 40% fat.

Multiple Interval Sprints produce the shift to fat oxidation.

The Take Home Message

1) The most important aspect of this information is that Keto Adapted individual appear to be Metabolically Flexible.

2) Keto Adapted individual utilize ketones/body fat as the primary source of energy; preserving and only using glucose on a "As needs basis".

Based on this information, on "days you want to go days you want to go fast by tapping into your maximal intensities, your goal climb or race," it appears you have more than enough muscle glycogen for what you need.

You don't need to consume a high carbohydrate diet.

Kenny Croxale
 
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ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
a) Sprint 1: 40% Glycogen.

b) Sprint 6: 9% Glucose, 40% fat.

Multiple Interval Sprints produce the shift to fat oxidation.
These studies show that a substantial contribution of fat oxidation to energy use even at very high exercise intensities,
Seriously? Do the authors suggest this or are you?

Care to elaborate on such a conclusion?

I would think the hypothesis: repeat sprint performance will decline with a shift towards longer recovery periods and a decrease in speed and power due to fatigue and low muscle glygogen....results: as expected.

Or, the hypothesis :repeat sprint performance will be enhanced by an increase in speed and power due to superior energy supply from superfast fat oxidation and zero fatigue. Although muscle glycogen is expected to drop, speed and power will be increased.....results? Conclusion?

So what does the science say?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
SNR #82: Dr. Jacob Wilson – Ketogenic Diets, Strength & Body Composition

Interval Sprint Training

a) Sprint 1: 40% Glycogen.

b) Sprint 6: 9% Glucose, 40% fat.

Multiple Interval Sprints produce the shift to fat oxidation.
These studies show that a substantial contribution of fat oxidation to energy use even at very high exercise intensities, may have been overlooked in the past.
Seriously? Do the authors suggest this or are you?
What do you think?

The answer to your question lies in the information that I posted.

Additional Information

Subjects exercised at ~82%VO2max. Carbohydrate oxidation provided 94% of energy on the HCLF diet, but only 65% on the LCHF diet.

..."Relevant findings in this study. ...following the LCHF diet for 42 days. Second, subjects maintained their performances during maximal (VO2max) exercise testing.

Hetlelid et al., 2015...the fastest athletes show higher rates of fat, but not carbohydrate oxidation during exercise at 94%VO2max. ...study, the superior running ability of the fastest sprinters “was explained by their nearly threefold higher rates of fat oxidation at high intensity” (without any evidence for superior rates of carbohydrate use).

...When exercising at ~82%VO2max, fat-adapted athletes oxidized fat at rates 5.25 times faster than when they ate the HCLF diet.

On the HCLF diet (High Carbohydrate Low Fat Diet) subjects showed an almost complete dependence on carbohydrate oxidation during exercise at >80%VO2max. In contrast when eating the LCHF diet (Low Carbohydrate Low Fat) , athletes retained the capacity to oxidize both fat and carbohydrate at high rates during exercise at that intensity whilst maintaining their performance capacity. Source: High Rates of Fat Oxidation Induced by a Low-Carbohydrate, High-Fat Diet, Do Not Impair 5-km Running Performance in Competitive Recreational Athletes

Al Ciampa and Snowman

These two individual have a much more extensive science background than I or the majority of individual on this site.

They have practical experience. Both use of have been on the Ketogenic Diet.

When I need more information on this, I email both. They always get back with me and provide me with a better insight on this.

Some of your questions will best be answered by them.

Kenny Croxdale
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Kenny, Kenny...first you say sprinting then produce a paper relating to 5k runners.....what is your point?

And that paper says:
Superior metabolic flexibility would
likely be beneficial during ultradistance events as maximal
fat oxidation rate measured during a graded exercise test is
a significant predictor of p
erformance time
during the
Ironman Triathlon (Frandsen et al., 2017).

Sure. Whatever. Ultradistance.
I have no beef.

But sprinting. How does higher fat oxidation rates in distance running relate in anyway to sprinting? How?

How does fat oxidation replace fast glycolysis and circumvent the role of pyruvate dehydrogenase? How, exactly, how?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Kenny, Kenny...first you say sprinting then produce a paper relating to 5k runners.....what is your point?
You overlooked some some of the information in this researcher paper.

You also need to examine Rachel Gregory's research.

There is no value in any further discussion on this topic for you or me.

Time to move.

Kenny Croxdale
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So what did I miss?

this?

'male runners performed a self-paced HIT sequence consisting of six, 4 min work bouts separated by 2 min recovery periods on a motorised treadmill set at a 5% gradient."

or something else. That by the way is from the study that was quoted in the study you referred to as 'sprinting'. I read your study and the referenced study.
If I've overlooked something else, let me know. Did you read the original study too?
So I suppose it is about the definition of sprinting. Personally, I think, a 4 mile run is not a sprint. It's a middle distance track event. Let's say about a mile.
And a large chunk of energy will be supplied by the aerobic system - which may or may not be derived from glucose or fat or both.
And sprinting, isn't. So I see no obvious similarities.

This Rachel Gregory?

She also dives into some of the details behind building her website and business around her ketogenic interests. Rachel, along with several others, is making waves in San Diego within the keto community!

Good for her. She's in the keto business down there in California where the sun always shines.

I'm not in the carb business by the way, nothing to promote or sell, I just eat bananas. I also eat avocado and coconuts and use olive oil, so, see, I'm almost keto.

Anyway the only research by Ms Gregory immediately obvious was a thesis.

Yes, time to move on....but before we part, impartial readers may refer to some SF podcasts on this:

So first up on the SF podcast is Brad Kearns and talking about keto sprints:

Podcast Episode #06: Brad Kearns | StrongFirst

a former endurance athlete and keto type talking about sprinting. (wear a crash helmet).

And then Derek Toshner:

Podcast Episode #07: Derek Toshner | StrongFirst

...also talking about sprinting.

I'm Team Derek. That's all.
 

Shawn90

More than 500 posts
I always start the day with a cup of black coffee.. Sometimes pre-training I also eat a banana. Sometimes when practicing in a fasted state ( no banana ) I don't feel too good, and sometimes I don't notice at all. I found my hunger in the morning to be great if I had a late night snack the evening beforehand.

I wonder if it really matters THAT much ??
 

Chrisdavisjr

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Perhaps of interest to those who would like to learn more about the role of caffeine as it relates to strength sports and athletic performance in general, the Weightlifting House Podcast interviewed Eric Trexler (PhD, pro-bodybuilder and director of education for 'Stronger by Science') on that very subject:

Everything You Need To Know About Caffeine w/ Eric Trexler

It's a lengthy listen, so you might want to grab a hot cup of something and get comfortable.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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I always start the day with a cup of black coffee.
Caffeine

Caffeine is one of the few supplements proven to be effective at enhancing training, performance an cognitive function.

There about 120-200 mg in a cup of coffee.

The Lifter’s Guide to Caffeine • Stronger by Science

...."less perceived pain, less perceived exertion, and enhanced maintenance of motor unit firing rates. The result is an improved ability to produce high forces and maintain power output during fatiguing exercise, thus enhancing fatigue resistance in a variety of tasks that include strength and sprint exercise.'

"Caffeine was found to enhance both peak (ES = 0.27) and mean (ES = 0.18) power output."

"If you weigh 100kg (220lb), this means that you’d be given a 600mg caffeine dose in most studies, which is about 6 cups of brewed coffee, all at once."

Gram Per Pound of Body Weight

Research indicates that up to 4 gram of caffeine per pound of body weight is effective. That is not a dosage you want to start off with. It is the top end of the scare that you don't want to exceed.

Based on the information above, 6 cups of coffee has around 720 to 1200 mg of caffeine. With most coffee, it hard to know how much caffeine you are getting per cup.

Secondly, it not really feasible to consume 6 cups of coffee, "all at once", prior to training

Finally, for someone who want to know how much caffeine they are taking and/or increase the dosage, 200 mg caffeine tablet are the way to go.

The cost of 200 mg Caffeine Tablets are around 4 cent each, if you get them on sale.

Energy Drinks

The foundation of Energy Drinks is caffeine. Approximately, 80% of the energy enhancement comes from caffeine. The rest of the ingredients provide maybe the remaining 20%.

So, a cup of coffee or Caffeine Tablets will provide essentially the same effect for a lot less.

Sometimes pre-training I also eat a banana. Sometimes when practicing in a fasted state ( no banana ) I don't feel too good,
Banana

Banana's are a high glycemic index food. You'd get the same effect with just having a few tablespoons of sugar.

One of the downsides of consuming a high glycemic index foods prior to training is it triggers insulin; which blocks the fat burning process.

If you're going to eat a carbohydrate prior to training, a better choice is a low glycemic carbohydrate. Consuming a protein drink with a limited amount of carbohydrates or something like a some cheese would be even better.

Sugar Free Jello

I train in a fasted state. However, I understand the hunger issue.

One method that works is to have some Sugar Free Jello before training, it circumvent the insulin issue and alleviates hunger.

A friend of mine who is a competitive biker who often trained in a fasted state provide me with that idea. Technically, you're not exactly in a fasted state but you're close to it and it curbs your hunger.
 
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ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Banana's are a high glycemic index food. You'd get the same effect with just having a few tablespoons of sugar.

One of the downsides of consuming a high glycemic index foods prior to training is it triggers insulin; which blocks the fat burning process.
Oh Kenny, stop it. Insulin shminsulin.

Stop the anti banana-it's-just-like sugar utter bollocks.
I eat a banana before training. After training too. Sometimes even an apple.
Any chance, any opportunity that arises to give any carb a right good kicking and off you go.

It's tiresome. Moreover, it's damaging. Plus it verges into science denial.

Sorry moderators but it needs to be said and stated very plainly....fruit is a healthy food choice. Full stop.

If you don't like bananas because they taste too banana-ey, fine. Bananas do not cause diabetes or any other disease or health problem, fungal toe or cancer. You can eat too many bananas and die from potassium poisoning but I don't think you mean that.

Next time you watch any tennis on the telly, please write a letter, or go on twitter, informing the nutritional scientists employed by the top tennis players in the world that eating that banana between the 4th and 5th game of the second set was a bad nutritional strategy because it turned off their fat burning capability and cost them the game.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
I think it's important to note that training in fasted state, using a low carb training period prior to carb loading for an endurance event etc are all strategies that mimic carb depletion from muscular effort.

You get the exact same signalling by just training hard enough to deplete local glycogen/glucose stores - it is the same pathway, you're just taking a shortcut.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Everything You Need To Know About Caffeine w/ Eric Trexler
Good Podcast

One of the interesting points is that when coffee (caffeine) is ingested at the same time as some medication, the dosage of that particular medication is magnified; as grapefruit juice can do.

Another research study that I came across a few yeas ago, indicated that caffeine (like grapefruit juice) could dramatically magnify the dosage of some medication.

Another study examined the possibility of using lower dosages of a drug and adding some type of grapefruit derivative.

Minimizing the dosage of the medication would minimize the side effects.

By using some type of grapefruit derivative with it, would boost the drug to the appropriate dosage.

What limited this method was that some individuals are hyper-responders to graperuit (creating an over dose effect) and some individual would be hypo-repsonders to grapefruit (producing and under dose effect).

Caffeine Response

The podcast goes into the similar effects of caffeine.

1) Fast Responder: These individual are sensitive to caffeine, it jack them up.

2) Slow Responder: These individual are less sensitive; caffeine intake doesn't do much for them.
 

Shawn90

More than 500 posts
Caffeine

Caffeine is one of the few supplements proven to be effective at enhancing training, performance an cognitive function.

There about 120-200 mg in a cup of coffee.

The Lifter’s Guide to Caffeine • Stronger by Science

...."less perceived pain, less perceived exertion, and enhanced maintenance of motor unit firing rates. The result is an improved ability to produce high forces and maintain power output during fatiguing exercise, thus enhancing fatigue resistance in a variety of tasks that include strength and sprint exercise.'

"Caffeine was found to enhance both peak (ES = 0.27) and mean (ES = 0.18) power output."

"If you weigh 100kg (220lb), this means that you’d be given a 600mg caffeine dose in most studies, which is about 6 cups of brewed coffee, all at once."

Gram Per Pound of Body Weight

Research indicates that up to 4 gram of caffeine per pound of body weight is effective. That is not a dosage you want to start off with. It is the top end of the scare that you don't want to exceed.

Based on the information above, 6 cups of coffee has around 720 to 1200 mg of caffeine. With most coffee, it hard to know how much caffeine you are getting per cup.

Secondly, it not really feasible to consume 6 cups of coffee, "all at once", prior to training

Finally, for someone who want to know how much caffeine they are taking and/or increase the dosage, 200 mg caffeine tablet are the way to go.

The cost of 200 mg Caffeine Tablets are around 4 cent each, if you get them on sale.

Energy Drinks

The foundation of Energy Drinks is caffeine. Approximately, 80% of the energy enhancement comes from caffeine. The rest of the ingredients provide maybe the remaining 20%.

So, a cup of coffee or Caffeine Tablets will provide essentially the same effect for a lot less.



Banana

Banana's are a high glycemic index food. You'd get the same effect with just having a few tablespoons of sugar.

One of the downsides of consuming a high glycemic index foods prior to training is it triggers insulin; which blocks the fat burning process.

If you're going to eat a carbohydrate prior to training, a better choice is a low glycemic carbohydrate. Consuming a protein drink with a limited amount of carbohydrates or something like a some cheese would be even better.

Sugar Free Jello

I train in a fasted state. However, I understand the hunger issue.

One method that works is to have some Sugar Free Jello before training, it circumvent the insulin issue and alleviates hunger.

A friend of mine who is a competitive biker who often trained in a fasted state provide me with that idea. Technically, you're not exactly in a fasted state but you're close to it and it curbs your hunger.
Sorry I am not going to read this. Just stated what I do. ;)
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
.."less perceived pain, less perceived exertion, and enhanced maintenance of motor unit firing rates. The result is an improved ability to produce high forces and maintain power output during fatiguing exercise, thus enhancing fatigue resistance in a variety of tasks that include strength and sprint exercise.'
And this is due to caffeine itself? Or due to its effect on the central nervous system....a stress response, and subsequent release of glucose from liver glycogen to make energy available which would allow for more sustained power output? That energy being glucose, of course. And fat.
 

Van Der Merve

Double-Digit Post Count
Oh Kenny, stop it. Insulin shminsulin.

Stop the anti banana-it's-just-like sugar utter bollocks.
I eat a banana before training. After training too. Sometimes even an apple.
Any chance, any opportunity that arises to give any carb a right good kicking and off you go.

It's tiresome. Moreover, it's damaging. Plus it verges into science denial.

Sorry moderators but it needs to be said and stated very plainly....fruit is a healthy food choice. Full stop.

If you don't like bananas because they taste too banana-ey, fine. Bananas do not cause diabetes or any other disease or health problem, fungal toe or cancer. You can eat too many bananas and die from potassium poisoning but I don't think you mean that.

Next time you watch any tennis on the telly, please write a letter, or go on twitter, informing the nutritional scientists employed by the top tennis players in the world that eating that banana between the 4th and 5th game of the second set was a bad nutritional strategy because it turned off their fat burning capability and cost them the game.
The truth is, banana OR sugar, neither of them are "good" or "bad" choice. Many Tour de France cyclists use flat Coca-Cola as their energy drink during the race - they must be all on the verge of T2 diabetes and heart attacks, right?

IIFYM - If It Fits Your Macros has worked for many individuals for a long time and for many goals, such as bulking or getting ripped. Prof. Mark Haub lost weight and improved his biomarkers on a "Twinkie diet", specifically eating only "junk" food. With a caveat: daily intake below 2000 kcal.

You like banana - eat a banana, chocolate - bite on one. Coca Cola - go right ahead.
 

tmpierce

Double-Digit Post Count
"Many Tour de France cyclists use flat Coca-Cola as their energy drink during the race - they must be all on the verge of T2 diabetes and heart attacks, right?"

Actually...

No really, listen to ‎The Peter Attia Drive: #85 - Iñigo San Millán, Ph.D.: Mitochondria, exercise, and metabolic health on Apple Podcasts

EDIT: and also, "And this is due to caffeine itself? Or due to its effect on the central nervous system"

Some of both actually. Caffeine does have impacts on metabolism as well as CNS. Here's an interesting source that talks a little about it: Pharmacology of Caffeine - Caffeine for the Sustainment of Mental Task Performance - NCBI Bookshelf
 
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ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
For those that listened to the podcast, what were the take aways, for you?

What would you select from it that you feel is significant? Or not.

The use of fasting, low carb, ketogenic diets, carbs and how that all fits together in how the expert presented his views.

I have mine but interested in a different perspective, selection bias input and if you have set views on what you wanted to hear, or did something change your views? If you're diabetic for instance, if you want to admit to that I know, privacy being an issue. Or keto. Or whatever.

We can all see and hear the same thing but report back different things....a little research, if you'd like. Not looking for a food fight btw, just a fight between subjectivity and objectivity. If anyone can be arsed, that is.

Because it was a really good listen after all.
 

Timmer C

Double-Digit Post Count
On weekdays, I typically fast for 19-20 hours and eat in a 4-5 hour eating window. I appreciate the fact that a good black coffee can have such tasty flavors notes that I can feel indulgent even in the midst of a fast. My body is good at using stored energy for fuel, so I don’t have problems with weakness or hunger, but a good coffee really reinforces the idea that I am not depriving myself.
 
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