Bodyweight Comparing Barbell to Bodyweight

[Kozushi]

I took a dip into barbell training for about 4 months. My strength is rooted in S&S and whatever I get out of judo training and hiking, and maybe spending decades doing chinups and dips gave me something. In any case, I think I want to get serious with bodyweight training since:
1. It's accessible - can do advanced moves in my own home.
2. It's simple - next to no equipment nor calculations for exactly how much weight to put on a bar...
3. The movements are varied and in various planes. They resemble the multi-directional strengths and body mobility power and skills I need for success in judo.

My question is mainly about if it is true to think this:

"Barbell training allows you to go heavier than your own bodyweight, so it is better in this sense, whereas bodyweight training allows you to train strength at different angles and with different movements than with a barbell. The two could be used to complement one another to fill in each other's gaps. If one is heavy (I'm 100kg) then bodyweight training is probably sufficiently heavy for 'getting strong' (I know this is a relativistic statement, but...)"

 

[Marc]

It all depends on the exercise, I'd say.
For example: If I press a 60 kg barbbell overhead it is easy for me because it is "scaled". I lack the strength to do a full handstand pushup (@ a bw of ~ 90 kg). So for the handstand pushup I still have a huge capacity to progress and build strength and muscle in the process.
On the other hand, bw squats are easy and I can do them for minutes. Therefore I'd have to load them externally to progress strength-wise or chose heavier progressions like pistol squats, airbourne lunges, shrimp squats etc.. However, due to their instable nature they are probably less suitable for max strength.
Generally speaking: Using only bw for the uppper body will probably keep you busy and progressing over your whole lifetime if you are programming it correctly. For the lower body you will probably have to add weights at some point to keep progressing strength-wise (which is not to say that you can't build decent legs with bw only, but to fully reach your hypertrophy and strength potential for legs/lower body, you probably have to use weights at some point).

 

[John climber PT]

Hi there im new to the forum. It's like most things, you get strong at what you specifically do, although there is some carry over. My argument to anyone comparing the strength to either is why? Show me a great heavy dead or a one arm one finger pullup. It's not the tool but the reason why. I've read some of your posts (original poster) and you do come across naturally interested but also like your trying to find that magic pill (most of us do this). One is not better than the other, what you take from one you will gain in another, and vice versa, it's just the way it is.

 

[Kozushi]

Hi there im new to the forum. It's like most things, you get strong at what you specifically do, although there is some carry over. My argument to anyone comparing the strength to either is why? Show me a great heavy dead or a one arm one finger pullup. It's not the tool but the reason why. I've read some of your posts (original poster) and you do come across naturally interested but also like your trying to find that magic pill (most of us do this). One is not better than the other, what you take from one you will gain in another, and vice versa, it's just the way it is.

Exactly! The problem isn't getting to the goal but deciding what my goal(s) should be!

 

[John climber PT]

Ok. If you look at your first post you said you wanted to try bodyweight training, but your almost not sure because of the argument that barbells can be more effective in some ways? (the statement at the bottom). If you enjoy your judo then why not (im sure you may have) look up the proper training that the top (clean) judo guys use for conditioning and strength?

 

[offwidth]

Ok. If you look at your first post you said you wanted to try bodyweight training, but your almost not sure because of the argument that barbells can be more effective in some ways? (the statement at the bottom). If you enjoy your judo then why not (im sure you may have) look up the proper training that the top (clean) judo guys use for conditioning and strength?

Exactly...
Success leaves tracks...

 

[Kozushi]

Ok. If you look at your first post you said you wanted to try bodyweight training, but your almost not sure because of the argument that barbells can be more effective in some ways? (the statement at the bottom). If you enjoy your judo then why not (im sure you may have) look up the proper training that the top (clean) judo guys use for conditioning and strength?

That was the first place I looked, and to give you a taste of what I found... :

Strength Training for Judo – Judo Info

HAHAHA! All over the place stuff!

My coach said he did hang cleans and/or high pulls with a barbell his own bodyweight and that was about it other than running for off-mat training. There are lots of opinions on weights and judo from successful people.

 

[Jake Steinmann]

In Kozushi’s defense, information on S&C for combat sports tends to be all over the place. There’s rarely any real consensus, and the sports are so chaotic that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to point to a single method that produces stronger or better conditioned fighters.

Success may leave tracks, but in combat sports, the tracks are really muddy

 

[Glen]

Exactly...
Success leaves tracks...

There's definitely a grain of truth here but it's not been long since most sports avoided any strength component in their conditioning work for the sport.

 

[Noah]

If you need help deciding what path to choose simply find a metric in your life that you can use to measure success. If it's judo related test or quantify pre training, train a modality that you think will have a positive effect and retest or evaluate. if you pay attention to that you will find what works for you.
as far as comparing barbell to bodyweight training it often comes down to mechanics. a bench press has a significant mechanical advantage over a one arm push up that why it can be done so much heavier. there's a lot more to it, but that is a simple way to conceptualize it. one form of training isn't better than another but different. and the level of carry over wether from bb to bw or training to judo will depend a lot on your training age. as in how advanced a trainee are you, the less experience with resistance training you have you will likely see a greater carry over across modalities, and likely into judo as well.
so simply, you already have the power to answer your own questions. simply test, train, retest, learn, repeat.
-Noah Maxwell SFG TL

 

[Kozushi]

If you need help deciding what path to choose simply find a metric in your life that you can use to measure success. If it's judo related test or quantify pre training, train a modality that you think will have a positive effect and retest or evaluate. if you pay attention to that you will find what works for you.
as far as comparing barbell to bodyweight training it often comes down to mechanics. a bench press has a significant mechanical advantage over a one arm push up that why it can be done so much heavier. there's a lot more to it, but that is a simple way to conceptualize it. one form of training isn't better than another but different. and the level of carry over wether from bb to bw or training to judo will depend a lot on your training age. as in how advanced a trainee are you, the less experience with resistance training you have you will likely see a greater carry over across modalities, and likely into judo as well.
so simply, you already have the power to answer your own questions. simply test, train, retest, learn, repeat.
-Noah Maxwell SFG TL

Thank you for your informed response. This is indeed what I have been doing since getting involved with Strong First 3-4 years ago. After embarking on my first real programme (S&S) I knew I was developing researched and proven strength, and I could see what it did for me (in short, A LOT!!! I can't over stress this point!!!) Regarding the bodyweight versus barbell question, what worries me is that my bodyweight is a lot less than what I can do with a barbell for quite a number of moves! But what I keep hearing from very strong individuals and coaches is that "it's all good". I met a strong friend yesterday I have a lot of respect for. He deadlifts regularly in the high 600 lbs range but also spends decent time with bodyweight training. What he told me is he figures bodyweight is perfectly good if you're a bigger guy (like me and him) for upper body training, but for lower body he can't see how you can engage the legs optimally without heavy iron. Okay, interesting and useful perspective on this. Something for me to think about.

If we're talking straight weight then if we compare similar/comparable barbell versus bodyweight moves, we can see which ones I can lift more weight with:

• deadlift 370lbs, pullups 220lbs
• curl 90lbs, chinups 220lbs
• bench press 260lbs+, dips 220lbs
• overhead press 140lbs, handstand pushup 220lbs
• etc, etc...

When I was regularly deadlifting with a kind of PTTP programme, I could nearly nail the lever move on the chinup bar! I can't do it any more since taking a break from the barbell.

Transferability of strength and skills is of course always a big question, and quite relevant for someone playing with mixing strength training and judo or any combat sport. A big reason for me wanting to develop callisthenics is as an exploration of this question. I wonder what difference it makes doing for instance bodyweight rows or ring L-sits on my judo compared with dealifting and presses.

 

[SuperGirevik]

Why not just do a cycle of calisthenics? That way you can compare the differences. Think about it, you did S&S and got a feel for what kettlebell training can deliver, then you tried barbell lifting and that provided it's own results and since you are now curious about body weight training, you should just go for it.

You might get weaker in some aspects but you will get stronger in others.

 

[Anna C]

Why not just do a cycle of calisthenics?

Possibly semantics... but there's a big difference between "calisthenics" and "bodyweight strength training." Essentially it's the same as the the difference between what CF-ers do with a barbell as part of a metcon (get sweaty, hot, and tired, and do a lot of work), and what powerlifters do with a barbell (get stronger).

I think most in this thread are talking about bodyweight strength training, but that also highlights the challeng of bodyweight strength training as compared to barbell strength training -- it's very difficult to quantify the intensity and progression when using bodyweight, as compared with the weight on the bar with barbell training. Not to say it can't be done, and it does teach valuable lessons in tension, technique, and leverage, but it's not the most efficient way to get stronger, IMO.

 

[SuperGirevik]

@Anna C, Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that calisthenics = body weight training. When I said calisthenics, I was thinking along the lines of the Naked Warrior and the Fighter Pull-up program.

As for quantifying progression, if we use the FPP as an example, your progress would be the number of reps using strict form.

But eventually you would have to make the exercise harder by using a more challenging version (ex. push-up -> OA push-up). That can be tricky I suppose.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that calisthenics = body weight training. When I said calisthenics, I was thinking along the lines of the Naked Warrior and the Fighter Pull-up program.

As for quantifying progression, if we use the FPP as an example, your progress would be the number of reps using strict form.

But eventually you would have to make the exercise harder by using a more challenging version (ex. push-up -> OA push-up). That can be tricky I suppose.

There's definitely a continuum. Maybe just semantics, like I said. But a lot of people use calisthenics for conditioning or metcon, and that's quite different from pure strength training where you do 1 to 5 really hard reps in a set. I think of calistenics as 100-500 bodyweight squats in a session, 100-500 jumping jacks, 25-200 push ups, 25-100 burpees, sit-ups... things like that.

So Naked Warrior yes, bodyweight strength. FPP, maybe in between.

Exactly -- the progression challenge is making the exercise appropriately harder to drive a strength gain. It's a lot easier to just add weight to the bar than it is to figure out how much you've increased the difficulty by doing a different variation of a bodyweight movement.

 

[Kozushi]

There's definitely a continuum. Maybe just semantics, like I said. But a lot of people use calisthenics for conditioning or metcon, and that's quite different from pure strength training where you do 1 to 5 really hard reps in a set. I think of calistenics as 100-500 bodyweight squats, 100-500 jumping jacks, 25-200 push ups, 25-100 burpees, set-ups... things like that.

So Naked Warrior yes, bodyweight strength. FPP, maybe in between.

Exactly -- the progression challenge is making the exercise appropriately harder to drive a strength gain. It's a lot easier to just add weight to the bar than it is to figure out how much you've increased the difficulty by doing a different variation of a bodyweight movement.

All valid points.

My understanding of "callisthenics" isn't the burpee, jumping jacks exercises. I mean it to be bodyweight strength training (which is a mouthful). The Kavadlos mean it this way and I thought Pavel did, but I could be wrong. I've misread things before, hahaha, as you well know.

I think the challenge hit me when I figured I'd try some new bodyweight moves and found I either couldn't do them at all (like levers or flags) or I couldn't do them well (like V-sits, 1 handed pushups, bodyweight rows etc) so there seems to be room for this 223lbs guy to progress in manipulating that 223lbs of weight he carries around everywhere including at judo.

I can do two reps of the right handed one hand pushup, but I haven't scored a left handed one recently. I've got to reactivate my pistols too. Dips are keeping me in good form (can do sets of 9) but I've lost some strength for chinups/pullups (some shoulder problems going on here, sadly, so I've had to work around them.)

My theory is that having a nice home regimen including dips, pullups, chinups, L-sits, V-sits, bodyweight rows, pushups, 1 handed pushups, pistols, archer squats, all stuff that isn't going to push me too far, while keeping my S&S going, ought to at least maintain a decent level of strength at my 223lbs. Breaking beyond this will clearly involve proper barbell training. I can do the deadlifts at home of course in my basement, but as I understand it this is one of the big four moves including also squats, bench press and military press. I'm coming to see that building strength is not something that is accomplished in only a few years. I've done a lot in the past 3.5 years with Strong First, but there is clearly a lot more progress I am capable of as my body continues to adapt and grow.

 

[Pantrolyx]

All valid points.

My understanding of "callisthenics" isn't the burpee, jumping jacks exercises. I mean it to be bodyweight strength training (which is a mouthful). The Kavadlos mean it this way and I thought Pavel did, but I could be wrong. I've misread things before, hahaha, as you well know.

I think the challenge hit me when I figured I'd try some new bodyweight moves and found I either couldn't do them at all (like levers or flags) or I couldn't do them well (like V-sits, 1 handed pushups, bodyweight rows etc) so there seems to be room for this 223lbs guy to progress in manipulating that 223lbs of weight he carries around everywhere including at judo.

I can do two reps of the right handed one hand pushup, but I haven't scored a left handed one recently. I've got to reactivate my pistols too. Dips are keeping me in good form (can do sets of 9) but I've lost some strength for chinups/pullups (some shoulder problems going on here, sadly, so I've had to work around them.)

My theory is that having a nice home regimen including dips, pullups, chinups, L-sits, V-sits, bodyweight rows, pushups, 1 handed pushups, pistols, archer squats, all stuff that isn't going to push me too far, while keeping my S&S going, ought to at least maintain a decent level of strength at my 223lbs. Breaking beyond this will clearly involve proper barbell training. I can do the deadlifts at home of course in my basement, but as I understand it this is one of the big four moves including also squats, bench press and military press. I'm coming to see that building strength is not something that is accomplished in only a few years. I've done a lot in the past 3.5 years with Strong First, but there is clearly a lot more progress I am capable of as my body continues to adapt and grow.

Hmm, I think the potential for getting real strong with bodyweight training is significantly higher than that. Like, how strong would you be on the judo mat if you could be able to performed a one armed pull-up at your weight? Or numerous shrimp sqats, handstand pushups or one handed bridges, for instance?

 

[pet']

Hello,

In which category would fall this


Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hmm, I think the potential for getting real strong with bodyweight training is significantly higher than that. Like, how strong would you be on the judo mat if you could be able to performed a one armed pull-up at your weight? Or numerous shrimp sqats, handstand pushups or one handed bridges, for instance?

Yes, I think so. I can't load any more than 223lbs onto myself with my bodyweight training, but if it's all loaded onto just one arm or leg, that's something like doubling my bodyweight to 446lbs for that move. ("Something like it, not like it exactly of course.) A one arm chinup is like doing a 2 arm chinup with 223lbs strapped to my back.

I'm going with a bodyweight emphasis because, like you said, the potential to get ridiculously strong is indeed there, even if I'll have to assume having the barbell and the rack etc allow higher weights for the moves possible with them. In any case you can't replicate exactly the motion of bodyweight moves with weights nor vice-versa of course. But the other main reason for me going for bodyweight strength is its convenience and relative safety. I can do all this stuff with light, cheap equipment in my house at any time, all the time I'm at home, even if the kids are running around (can't do kettlebell moves with them around).

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

In which category would fall this


Kind regards,

Pet'

This is why I do judo - I end up moving a lot like that in the matches and training in general, but to have to memorize that pattern and make myself do it by myself would be very hard. The chaos of an opponent is terrifically helpful to developing all around strength.