Kettlebell Comparing Benefits of Turkish Get up to Clean and Press
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coachnathanwhite
Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi
In my experience, the TGU really allows for increased focus on practicing the "skill of strength." When an iron ball is hovering over your brain case, you need to be aware of what you are doing.
The TGU develops and trains the body
to move athletically. An experienced girevik can express the movements with a certain "flow", but in doing so can control the precise level of tension and relaxation.
This controlled focus of tension and relaxation is called "Kime" and is translated into many other kettlebell movements including the Clean and Press.
IMO, practicing the TGU prepares the mind to endure the more rigorous performance and physical demands required of the Clean and Press. As volumes increase you will need to "get your mind right!"
The mind is always primary, always...
In my experience, the TGU really allows for increased focus on practicing the "skill of strength." When an iron ball is hovering over your brain case, you need to be aware of what you are doing.
The TGU develops and trains the body
to move athletically. An experienced girevik can express the movements with a certain "flow", but in doing so can control the precise level of tension and relaxation.
This controlled focus of tension and relaxation is called "Kime" and is translated into many other kettlebell movements including the Clean and Press.
IMO, practicing the TGU prepares the mind to endure the more rigorous performance and physical demands required of the Clean and Press. As volumes increase you will need to "get your mind right!"
The mind is always primary, always...
Frank_IT
Level 4 Valued Member
Also, to me, TGU is not a push. Someone here said not so long ago it is very similar to a "vertical carry", which I think is a good definition of the movement. It helps the press for sure, but I still stand to my (probably wrong) idea that it will not improve it alone, if you don't actually press.
To me, TGU gives you resilient shoulders, the press gives you strong ones and both develop an iron solid mid-section, if performed with a sufficient weight (expecially the get up for the sheer amount of time under tension and the continuous shifting of the body under the load).
I find what @natewhite39 says about awareness of a weight over your head to be very true. Every loaded movement is dangerous to some extent, and I feel like the Turkish get up si the "worst of them all": it is a constant joint rotation, performed under load and while the body changes six stances (lying, elbow roll, seated, three points stance, kneeling, standing) and back again for a total of eleven very articulated movements. It is the main reason why I approach the get up with a lot of caution... This, and because you really can't predict where the bell is going to fall, if it happens. The press is much more forgiving in this sense.
If done regularly and correctly, though, it forces the body to adapt to a variable stress like no other exercise, other carries excluded (which, now that I come to think about it, could be why Dan Jon stresses the importance of loaded carries).
To me, TGU gives you resilient shoulders, the press gives you strong ones and both develop an iron solid mid-section, if performed with a sufficient weight (expecially the get up for the sheer amount of time under tension and the continuous shifting of the body under the load).
I find what @natewhite39 says about awareness of a weight over your head to be very true. Every loaded movement is dangerous to some extent, and I feel like the Turkish get up si the "worst of them all": it is a constant joint rotation, performed under load and while the body changes six stances (lying, elbow roll, seated, three points stance, kneeling, standing) and back again for a total of eleven very articulated movements. It is the main reason why I approach the get up with a lot of caution... This, and because you really can't predict where the bell is going to fall, if it happens. The press is much more forgiving in this sense.
If done regularly and correctly, though, it forces the body to adapt to a variable stress like no other exercise, other carries excluded (which, now that I come to think about it, could be why Dan Jon stresses the importance of loaded carries).
MattH
Level 4 Valued Member
For me the TGU helped me to 'think strong'. A press is just that, you press the weight and it's done (before you start, I know there's much more to it but bear with me). A TGU, as @Frank_IT stated above, is a long movement under tension that just generally makes you solid and unkillable. I noticed I became a much more solid shape doing TGU's, and I developed an imovability that I never got from pressing. Doing S&S simple is an impressive expression of overall strength and pays dividends, and if you've achieved simple yourself you'll no doubt marvel at how those step ups in weight felt shaky and difficult and then built up to strong, solid movements.
My press has always been weak though. I'm currently ROP-ing with a 20kg press, a 24kg swing and a 20kg snatch, although I'll test with a 24kg press and just a 16kg snatch as I haven't acheived ROP goals with either (yet). But my needs are different; I'm chasing ROP goals (eventually the full 1/2 BW press and the 24kg snatch test) and want to move onto ROTK as I've never got there before. That being said, I do not play down the benefit of TGU's and as such do S&S on my variety days, although I don't test it, and move up weights in preparation and support of my ROP as that's my main program.
tl;dr - it depends on your goals. I suppose you'll get the biggest benefit from the one you can do consistently.
My press has always been weak though. I'm currently ROP-ing with a 20kg press, a 24kg swing and a 20kg snatch, although I'll test with a 24kg press and just a 16kg snatch as I haven't acheived ROP goals with either (yet). But my needs are different; I'm chasing ROP goals (eventually the full 1/2 BW press and the 24kg snatch test) and want to move onto ROTK as I've never got there before. That being said, I do not play down the benefit of TGU's and as such do S&S on my variety days, although I don't test it, and move up weights in preparation and support of my ROP as that's my main program.
tl;dr - it depends on your goals. I suppose you'll get the biggest benefit from the one you can do consistently.
coachnathanwhite
Level 6 Valued Member
Spotting the TGU is a skill practiced during the SFG cert. It may seem awkward at first, but is important to use with new students.
Also, for yourself and if you coach others I would recommend practicing an "escape" with a heavy bell (outdoors of course). Always escape (drop) in front of you and never backwards. The kettlebell doesn't care if you drop it, but your shoulder will care which direction you go with it.
This is no different than practicing tumbling with bodyweight exercise. You should have an idea and the confidence to escape in order to avoid a potential serious injury.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
For me, any exercise that has me changing levels is going to feel a lot harder and work me more than ones that don't.
Aside from that, the TGU works the shoulder complex through a larger ROM than the C&P, incorporates the hip flexors/extensors a lot more comprehensively than a C&P. Also, TGU works the shoulder using more of a static resistance loading, though arguably by shifting the torso around the shoulder it is not strictly a static lift.
A closer comparison might be the Bent Press to the TGU, but the initial get-up into the kneeling position is very different from the BP, even if done with a squat.
As I understand it, there may be a difference in how the heart rate/blood pressure respond to either, but I'm not entirely clear on the benefit differences or if they even exist. Theoretically the C&P puts more demand for blood volume through the heart (increase in heart rate not as much increase in pressure, the TGU would put more of a demand for higher blood pressure with a lower (relative) heart rate.
Aside from that, the TGU works the shoulder complex through a larger ROM than the C&P, incorporates the hip flexors/extensors a lot more comprehensively than a C&P. Also, TGU works the shoulder using more of a static resistance loading, though arguably by shifting the torso around the shoulder it is not strictly a static lift.
A closer comparison might be the Bent Press to the TGU, but the initial get-up into the kneeling position is very different from the BP, even if done with a squat.
As I understand it, there may be a difference in how the heart rate/blood pressure respond to either, but I'm not entirely clear on the benefit differences or if they even exist. Theoretically the C&P puts more demand for blood volume through the heart (increase in heart rate not as much increase in pressure, the TGU would put more of a demand for higher blood pressure with a lower (relative) heart rate.
Frank_IT
Level 4 Valued Member
I learnt the hard way that there's to be an exit plan, @natewhite39, as I already dropped one 24 kg bell and one 32 kg one... I'm lucky enough, let's say! 
From the day I dropped the 32s, I developed a skill (out of survavil instinct, I guess) to dash forward when it happens, and rapidly disengage from the bell to avoid damages to the articulations.
My SFG was constantly spotting me during my first TGUs, once he felt secure I could go up by myself... Well, he still spotted me for good mesure! I found it a very professional way to treat someone that had never done a get up before.
I don't teach people. I do advocate strength training, kettlebells and StrongFirst in particular to everyone I know, but I tell everyone that live close there's Alessandro (SFG II) to teach them, not me. Someone even said to me "Ok, I'm gonna get a kettlebell and you'll show me!". My answer is always the same: go meet him, not me. One thing is to teach others simple isolation movements, another one is to venture into compound lifts that could potentially lead to life changing injuries. Even if I feel fairly proficient with the swing, I'd never pass it to another person.
From the day I dropped the 32s, I developed a skill (out of survavil instinct, I guess) to dash forward when it happens, and rapidly disengage from the bell to avoid damages to the articulations.My SFG was constantly spotting me during my first TGUs, once he felt secure I could go up by myself... Well, he still spotted me for good mesure!
I found it a very professional way to treat someone that had never done a get up before.I don't teach people.
I do advocate strength training, kettlebells and StrongFirst in particular to everyone I know, but I tell everyone that live close there's Alessandro (SFG II) to teach them, not me. Someone even said to me "Ok, I'm gonna get a kettlebell and you'll show me!". My answer is always the same: go meet him, not me. One thing is to teach others simple isolation movements, another one is to venture into compound lifts that could potentially lead to life changing injuries. Even if I feel fairly proficient with the swing, I'd never pass it to another person.
Clean builds on the foundation of swing. Press builds on the foundation of get-up.
Swings, get-ups, cleans, presses - all good.
Swings, get-ups, cleans, presses - all good.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I find it hard to compare the two movements as I find them vastly different. The press is, to me, a more classic and fundamental strength movement. The TGU is more GPP. For example, I enjoy and find beneficial performing the TGU with a shoe, as explained in the S&S. I don't really do similar things with the C&P.
coachnathanwhite
Level 6 Valued Member
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Ah yes, that's what it means, thank you! What I've been noticing between the two (I think) is that the clean and press is making me stronger and better able to lift heavier weights (and even do the get up better) whereas the get up does a lot more for me cardio wise and also intelligence wise as I have to coordinate my movements a lot more over a lot longer period under stress than with the clean and press. I can't imagine giving up either exercise at this point. They complement each other. I don't think one really interferes with the other, particularly if done at different times in the day.
J Petersen
SFG1/SFB
In a military context, I've observed that working up to a respectable TGU weight has the advantage of making body armor and a kit feel significantly lighter. I don't believe that the same martial "edge" can be developed through C&P alone.
(If I ran the military, swings and the TGU would be taught and practiced frequently in basic training.)
(If I ran the military, swings and the TGU would be taught and practiced frequently in basic training.)
MattM
SFG1
Go for it, you'd probably win this election.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Thanks for the insight. Laying off TGUs for a bit made me feel less overall "physically prepared" - I think several of us have been noticing the same thing here.
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Deleted member 5559
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Hopefully a kinesiologist or someone can elaborate and correct my thoughts but I find isometric movements like the TGU and carries kind of elegant from a tension or force curve perspective. An isometric movement has a constant tension applied and a steady muscle length which to me is very uniform and symmetric.
Concentric and eccentric loading depends on the movement and angles. The concentric and eccentric portion of the press has a weird force curve to me, it increases and then decreases like a pyramid - I believe the peak is around when the upper arm is about 90* from the shoulder. Other movements have different force curves based on the leverage of the joint. Some require the most force at the beginning of the contraction and others at the end of the contraction. The TGU requires a lot of force in the bridge position from both the lats and the shoulder. To me it feels like performing a delt raise and a pulldown at the same time; that relationship seems more efficient from a training perspective.
In the end I think the body adapts to applying force at specific muscle lengths which is why the TGU can only provide so much benefit to the press and why the press can only provide so much benefit to the TGU. Another case of the 80/20 rule I suppose. Each will make 80% of the progress of the other but that extra 20% requires the specific movement you want to improve.
Concentric and eccentric loading depends on the movement and angles. The concentric and eccentric portion of the press has a weird force curve to me, it increases and then decreases like a pyramid - I believe the peak is around when the upper arm is about 90* from the shoulder. Other movements have different force curves based on the leverage of the joint. Some require the most force at the beginning of the contraction and others at the end of the contraction. The TGU requires a lot of force in the bridge position from both the lats and the shoulder. To me it feels like performing a delt raise and a pulldown at the same time; that relationship seems more efficient from a training perspective.
In the end I think the body adapts to applying force at specific muscle lengths which is why the TGU can only provide so much benefit to the press and why the press can only provide so much benefit to the TGU. Another case of the 80/20 rule I suppose. Each will make 80% of the progress of the other but that extra 20% requires the specific movement you want to improve.
Jan
Level 4 Valued Member
That is one of the reasons gymnasts for instance are considered by many to have the most symmetrical build. I have done gymnastics myself for 23 years, seven of them at competition level, and I can say that you are indeed under constant muscular tension. You get a lot of strength without looking overly bulky (well, at least not in the old days)
coachnathanwhite
Level 6 Valued Member
@Bro Mo From a shoulder health perspective, the TGU is an awesome rehabilitative exercise as well. I have worked with many students who you would never think they could get to the point of having any weight overhead. Over time, installing the getup into their hardware reprogrammed their software and we are both left looking around experiencing "the what the hell?" effect. The real deal.....
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
And what made me a definite convert to all this is the "what the hell" effect of the get up and swings on my judo performance. Those two exercises done according to the S&S system at least tripled the number of techniques I was using including techniques I had not practiced before but suddenly used then in matches having only seen them once or twice watching others or reading about them in books. It was ultra weird to me that kettlebells taught me judo moves!
I don't feel that my shoulders are going to break doing TGUs. Sometimes I get concerned doing C&P though.
Bromo: thanks for the 80/20 frame of reference for comparing these two excellent exercises. That makes a lot of sense and helps to put my mind at ease about a few lingering questions.
I don't feel that my shoulders are going to break doing TGUs. Sometimes I get concerned doing C&P though.
Bromo: thanks for the 80/20 frame of reference for comparing these two excellent exercises. That makes a lot of sense and helps to put my mind at ease about a few lingering questions.
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