Kettlebell Complexes: Who, When, How?

[John Grahill]

Sorry, I hit "post reply" too quickly before. Regarding KBM weight selection, my recommendation is do not use a 10 rep max weight, use a weight that allows you to do 10 reps with a "couple" in reserve. It's also a strict press and not a clean and press. Leave egos at door when doing some Neupert complexes.

 

[Maine-ah KB]

okay so some disclaimers up front. I am NOT an expert, just opinionated.

Who: someone who has technique down, already has a decent level of strength, and is pretty busy with work, life, school. etc. as most complexes take 30min tops to complete.

When. your low on time, you've come off a serous limit strength cycle and your conditioning has taken a back seat. as part of/ complete hypertrophy protocol. @kennycro@@aol.com is correct, other more effective ways exist. but it is a great compromise between a variety of goals when on a time budget. (endurance, some strength, hypertrophy.)

How: build it around squat, hinge and pressing movements. use a weight that you can feels good for 6-12reps on your weakest movement. you can play with some combination of density, volume and load as the weeks progress. or better yet get someone with experience to tell you how to. may I suggest @Hector G Double Kettlebell Manifesto, 701 a.

I've been thinking about complexes in the context of HIRT training like in this article, but im not an expert so likely ill let someone else say if its a good idea or not. HIRT for Hypertrophy

bears repeating all of the above is IMO.

 

[watchnerd]

Would anyone agree that complex’s are better for people concerned with injury? You are using lighter weights in complexes and getting a similar workload without needing to get near your max limits is my thinking.

No, I wouldn't necessarily agree, at least not broadly and without reservations.

High reps to fatigue can lead to pretty bad form slop, which increases injury potential.

Also, your connective tissues don't progress as quickly as your muscles. It's pretty easy to get tendonitis or other types of RSI with complexes if one doesn't have a good training history already.

 

[watchnerd]

By doing heavy loads for shorter durations and taking long recoveries, we can accomplish the same or greater amount of work/training at the expense of a longer training session length.

I think this is the biggest paradigm shift embedded in Stongfirst that tends to fly in the face of what's currently popular.

It can't be said enough how well this works (at least for me), and how different it is from the "smoke yourself" / exercise-as-calories-burnt school of thought that seems to be burned into the mind of most people.

 

[watchnerd]

As far as injury concerns i can say personally i can get my muscles fatigued about the same with a complex Involving double snatches, presses, and squats with 20 to 24 kg bells vs doing lower rep presses and squats with 32kg bells.

Is inducing fatigue your key performance indicator?

Because there are many, many ways to induce fatigue.

Fatigue is not my personal performance indicator. I care most about increasing power, which means I almost never work to fatigue.

 

[watchnerd]

but it is a great compromise between a variety of goals when on a time budget. (endurance, some strength, hypertrophy.)

Sure, it's a good compromise of all those, without being really good at optimizing any one of them.

I'll sometimes use complexes as deloads between cycles, or on vacation when I'm away from my garage gym.

But complexes really highlight the distinction between "exercising" and "training".

 

[Anna C]

+4 @watchnerd

That means +1 to your last 4 posts!

 

[Steve Freides]

I think this is the biggest paradigm shift embedded in Stongfirst that tends to fly in the face of what's currently popular.

It can't be said enough how well this works (at least for me), and how different it is from the "smoke yourself" / exercise-as-calories-burnt school of thought that seems to be burned into the mind of most people.

Yup, yup, yup.

-S-

 

[North Coast Miller]

Fatigue is not my personal performance indicator. I care most about increasing power, which means I almost never work to fatigue.

A muscle that has been activated but not fatigued has not been trained.
You can spread the fatigue and adaptive response out over a longer timeframe, but the basic mechanism is pretty much iron-bound.

I'd also say relative to non stop higher intensity work as a paradigm, a lot of that is going the way of the dinosaur as well. The main reason is more and more folks understand intensity/volume relationship, and smoker type sessions are now very short to eliminate wasted effort. On top of that, all intelligently planned higher intensity protocols use some form of interval timing to allow for better recovery.

Again, a complex can be programmed a lot of ways. Even so I'd agree they aren't the best as a stand-alone except for the true generalist, but then alactic repeat work needs to be balanced against aerobic LSD or you wind up with almost zero aerobic carryover from your strength work. For me, complex/metcon type work is great to include between sessions devoted to higher %RM work - I can readily notice and feel my necessary recovery time shrink when I include these in my weekly load.

Very few training strategies are harmed by adding supplemental work, and if you're training for general health it is pretty much mandatory. As a competitive strength athlete your viewpoint will be different from a tactical athlete different from a standup fighter etc etc.

 

[watchnerd]

A muscle that has been activated but not fatigued has not been trained.

Well, that's not how power athletes train.

Sprinters don't "sprint to failure".

Weightlifters don't do snatches until they can't snatch anymore. Or do drop sets on competition lifts.

I'm not saying fatigue isn't induced. But fatigue isn't the key metric. You're not "training to fatigue".

 

[North Coast Miller]

Well, that's not how power athletes train.

Sprinters don't "sprint to failure".

Weightlifters don't do snatches until they can't snatch anymore. Or do drop sets on competition lifts.

I'm not saying fatigue isn't induced. But fatigue isn't the key metric. You're not "training to fatigue".

There is a huge difference between fatigue and failure.

And no, you're not training to fatigue specifically, but you are training to recruit the muscle and fatigue it. Without fatigue there is no adaptive stimulation to grow stronger, it doesn't matter whether you're training for power, endurance, limit strength, speed.

To what extent this is encouraged depends on what you're training for, competitive lifters won't use dropsets in runup to a competition, but they might use them as part of a size-building block.
Powerlifters Should Train More Like Bodybuilders • Stronger by Science

 

[IonRod]

Well, that's not how power athletes train.

Sprinters don't "sprint to failure".

Weightlifters don't do snatches until they can't snatch anymore. Or do drop sets on competition lifts.

I'm not saying fatigue isn't induced. But fatigue isn't the key metric. You're not "training to fatigue".

Yes, all those athletes use fatigue in training. They also use practice time for skill development when not in a fatigued state. You don't have to choose one or the other, there is a place for both.
Sometimes called a developmental block and realization block. Ask any successful weightlifter if he or she doesn't get fatigued in training.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, all those athletes use fatigue in training. They also use practice time for skill development when not in a fatigued state. You don't have to choose one or the other, there is a place for both.
Sometimes called a developmental block and realization block. Ask any successful weightlifter if he or she doesn't get fatigued in training.

Well, I'm a competing Masters class weightlifter. And I was coached by a former USA Olympic coach for the 1980, 1988, and 1992 Olympics, so I'm pretty confident in his methods.

And I didn't say one doesn't get fatigued. I'm saying, for the quick lifts, you don't train to the point of fatigue / failure (as compared to body building, where you keep going until you can barely do the move). Singles, doubles, maybe triples (rare) of a snatch, then rest. Otherwise, your form and power will break down and you'll start missing lifts. At which point you usually stop. You don't lower the weights like a drop set and keep going to the point of total muscle exhaustion.

Even on the strength lifts (back squat, front squat, clean pulls, clean deadlifts, etc) tempo / power is a concern. Overly slow squats are usually frowned upon.

Again, I'm not saying fatigue doesn't happen. Of course it does. I'm saying fatigue as an indicator of training to failure / exhaustion is not the key metric.

 

[watchnerd]

Powerlifters Should Train More Like Bodybuilders • Stronger by Science

Do you classify powerlifters as power athletes?

I don't. Despite the name, they don't need to train to be explosive. Some do, but it's not mandatory.

 

[watchnerd]

And no, you're not training to fatigue specifically, but you are training to recruit the muscle and fatigue it.

Again, I never said fatigue doesn't happen.

I was indicating the difference of using fatigue as the key metric vs not.

 

[Antti]

The Nuckols' article about powerlifters refers to the idea that there are primarily two factors to train in a bigger total; skill and muscle mass. In a sport with weight classes body composition plays a huge role.

Even if powerlifters aren't power athletes like weightlifters things like speed and power are emphasized. Some schools think more of it, some less.

When it comes to the competition lifts I think it's a very good idea to train them most of the time so that they never become too straining, but stay fast and explosive. But one must also learn how to grind. Compared to the weightlifting lifts, a powerlifter can grind a 1RM up, and likely will, if it's a true 1RM. And learning how to let the lift take time is a valuable skill. I'm really not sure what the optimal approach for this skill would be. I would likely say less is better than more, and that meets themselves are a good place to learn.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Ask any successful weightlifter if he or she doesn't get fatigued in training.

watchnerd is an Olympic Lifter. The information he continue to provide on this is on the money.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Do you classify powerlifters as power athletes?

I don't. Despite the name, they don't need to train to be explosive. Some do, but it's not mandatory.

Powerlifting

As you stated, there no Power in Powerlifting. It is a teat and measurement of Limits Strength.

The Powerlifters are completed in seconds.

Power is completed in milliseconds.

Strength Sets

When Powerlifting began the English name the Strength Sets, which they are.

American's came up with Powerlifting, which it isn't.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Even if powerlifters aren't power athletes like weightlifters things like speed and power are emphasized.

The Definitive On Powerlifting

There no "Even if..." Powerlifting is not nor will it every be categorized as a Power Movement.

Power is displayed in milliseconds. The Powerlifts take seconds to complete.

Power Training For the Powerlifts

The Westside Powerlifting Program has demonstrated that Power Training via Conjugate Training, plays a role with increasing Limits Strength.

There "Speed Training" days have demonstrated that. However, "Speed Training" is a misnomer.

Their "Speed Training" is actually Power Training; that based on the percentage of 1 Repetition Max used and the fact the there's not really speed involved in the movement.

Compared to the weightlifting lifts, a powerlifter can grind a 1RM up, and likely will, if it's a true 1RM.

Limit Strength

Powerlifting is the one sport that is a true test of Limit Strength.

Limit Strength using a 1 Repetition Max is going to entail a slow grinding movement. It the nature of the beast.

Olympic Lifter employ heavy "Grinding" Squats and Presses, they are quite capable of grinding out a 1 Repetition Max.

I'm really not sure what the optimal approach for this skill would be.

Skill Training and Development

I provide multiple post on how Skill and Technique in conjunction with a Limit Strength Training program; without compromising the skill and Technique of the sports movement being learned.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[North Coast Miller]

Do you classify powerlifters as power athletes?

I don't. Despite the name, they don't need to train to be explosive. Some do, but it's not mandatory.

I don't either. But we really aren't discussing complexes specific to Oly lifting or powerlifting, at least I wasn't and I don't think OP was.