Other/Mixed Conditioning for time under tension

[Antti]

I'm interested in starting to implement longer time under tension training in my regime. The main exercises I'm interested in are high-rep back squats and loaded carries. I'm after better squats, improved stability, a more developed midsection, and hypertrophy.

Most of my training so far has revolved around short sets, like 3-5 reps a set. I've done some squat sets of 8-12 reps occasionally. They go well with lighter weights and when there's not too many of them. I also do some of my accessory lifts as longer sets, and things like heavy rows can be taxing on my breath. When it comes to loaded carries, in my past years ago I did a lot of loaded carries as a part of my job. Since then, I haven't had a chance to do them again. But come this summer I will be able to start doing them again and I should be able to do them in the future comfortably whenever I like and when there isn't any snow on the ground - that comes up to half a year or so at a time.

In my long term planning the high rep squats would be used in an occasional short cycle, maybe once or twice a year. The loaded carries would be done regularly when the weather allows it.

What would be the optimal way for me to train the conditioning needed in these pursuits? My first instinct would be to go at it with the specific exercises themselves, but I've understood that something like high rep squats aren't the best way to go about conditioning. Or is it that they're the best way to train the conditioning for the specific practise itself, but not other pursuits? And if they're good for what they are, how does the adaptation that I get from the TUT exercises compare to the adaptation I would get from the typical recommended conditioning practices like A + A&A, low heart rate run or walk, rucking etc?

 

[offwidth]

I think you won't go far wrong with Farmers Walk's.

Heavy Rucking works wonders

And if you really want some conditioning... try loaded box steps.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I'm interested in starting to implement longer time under tension training in my regime. The main exercises I'm interested in are high-rep back squats and loaded carries. I'm after better squats, improved stability, a more developed midsection, and hypertrophy.

Bulgarian split squats / RFESS might also be a solid choice given your goals. They double as a loaded carry (almost) when done with heavier loads. They can also be programmed in at will with higher reps, and seem to be doing a good job with core stability.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Antti
I'd go for all kinds of carries (shoulder, farmer, ovh) using all the tools (plates, bells, sandback, logs & odd objects).

The following D. John's article has a section "how much & how often":
The Secret of Loaded Carries | T Nation
How to Build Anaconda Strength | T Nation

This one may also be interesting regarding programming:
Quantifying the Farmer's Walk | T Nation

Regarding hypertrophy and TUT, here is one of the reference (C. Poliquin):
Mass That Works – Build Some Functional Hypertrophy - STRENGTH SENSEI

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[wespom9]

And if they're good for what they are, how does the adaptation that I get from the TUT exercises compare to the adaptation I would get from the typical recommended conditioning practices like A + A&A, low heart rate run or walk, rucking etc?

This question interests me very much. I've always wondered what adaptations occur with slower, steady-state endurance vs "non-traditional" cardio. I can't recall a thread from a while ago where we discussed this. I know that RT vs endurance training affects the heart differently (L ventricle hypertrophy on RT), but as far as general health cardiovascular adaptation, I can't see how it would be vastly different.

 

[Harald Motz]

And if they're good for what they are, how does the adaptation that I get from the TUT exercises compare to the adaptation I would get from the typical recommended conditioning practices like A + A&A, low heart rate run or walk, rucking etc?

When lifting weights the muscles tense, as intraabdominal pressure does. The heavier the weight, the more tension. In tensed muscles, blood flow is reduced/obstructed plus the tension in the torso reduces blood flow and filling of the heart chambers, they do not expand fully.
As blood flow is obstructed, the heart has to pump with more pressure. Blood pressure spikes and the heart wall hypertrophies over periods of time when done over and over. The heart wall gets thicker and because it grows outwards and inwards, the left heart chamber which does the cardiac output can actually get smaller so stroke volume can decrease. This can lead to pathological heart issues. Additionally a thickened heart wall can loose its ability to expand and being pliable.

Walking/running for instance as the most "natural" human endurance event has very short dynamic tension spikes that do not hinder the flowing of the blood through the vessels and back to the heart. The heart chambers can fill and expand easily, the walls get stretched especially the left ventricle leading to a bigger heart chamber, which increases stroke volume, which can lead to reduced resting heart rate over time. Because of unrestricted relaxed breathing gas exchange can occur, developing aerobic energy pathways when going not to fast, MAF is a very helpful concept to that matter. The slower and longer one moves, energy use ratio shifts more towards fat. Going faster and shorter more towards carbs. Easy longer locomotion training relaxes the heart and leads to other cellular adaptation most importantly the build up of mitochondria, as they are the plants to convert carbs and fat to ATP, the energy currency for any muscle contraction.

lifting weights is more anaerobic, doing aerobics...is aerobic.

 

[offwidth]

When lifting weights the muscles tense, as intraabdominal pressure does. The heavier the weight, the more tension. In tensed muscles, blood flow is reduced/obstructed plus the tension in the torso reduces blood flow and filling of the heart chambers, they do not expand fully.
As blood flow is obstructed, the heart has to pump with more pressure. Blood pressure spikes and the heart wall hypertrophies over periods of time when done over and over. The heart wall gets thicker and because it grows outwards and inwards, the left heart chamber which does the cardiac output can actually get smaller so stroke volume can decrease. This can lead to pathological heart issues. Additionally a thickened heart wall can loose its ability to expand and being pliable.

Walking/running for instance as the most "natural" human endurance event has very short dynamic tension spikes that do not hinder the flowing of the blood through the vessels and back to the heart. The heart chambers can fill and expand easily, the walls get stretched especially the left ventricle leading to a bigger heart chamber, which increases stroke volume, which can lead to reduced resting heart rate over time. Because of unrestricted relaxed breathing gas exchange can occur, developing aerobic energy pathways when going not to fast, MAF is a very helpful concept to that matter. The slower and longer one moves, energy use ratio shifts more towards fat. Going faster and shorter more towards carbs. Easy longer locomotion training relaxes the heart and leads to other cellular adaptation most importantly the build up of mitochondria, as they are the plants to convert carbs and fat to ATP, the energy currency for any muscle contraction.

lifting weights is more anaerobic, doing aerobics...is aerobic.

Well said Harald.

 

[Antti]

Thanks to all of you for your tips and advice. I think I'll create a new thread about the loaded carries when the time comes that I get to actually start training them again. But I'll revisit this thread again then as well.

So if I understood @Harald Motz correctly, the time under tension exercises obstruct the blood flow. This forces the heart to work faster and if not the heart itself, the surroundings will grow due to the increased work rate. And as the breathing is restricted, the energy pathways during the TUT predominantly develop - or just use? - anaerobic energy systems, ATP and glucose. Am I right? That would indeed lead me to consider that the exercises I'm planning on doing won't do alone to bring me good cardiovascular conditioning and health.

Now, is there a method of conditioning training that can help me get better at tolerating the TUT exercises, that isn't the exercise itself? How far do the walking and running and such go in helping it?

How does rucking fit in to the picture? I've always viewed it as one way to combine TUT and cardio. I would expect it to naturally be dependent on the load, but I'm left to wonder if it wouldn't be better to do the two things separately, as in to do long walks and train the loaded carries and not to try to combine them in the rucking.

Lastly, when it comes to the squats and carries, how does the time play into the conditioning development? Like doing three squats EMOM for 10-20 minutes instead of doing a three sets of 20 with 5 minutes rest between?

 

[pet']

Hello,

Would this interest you
Your Conditioning Program Does Not Have to be Sport-Specific | StrongFirst

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Antti]

Hello,

Would this interest you
Your Conditioning Program Does Not Have to be Sport-Specific | StrongFirst

Kind regards,

Pet'

Looks like I have to thank @CMarker for a timely article.

If we take the squats and carries as the sport, my original point was exactly to find some conditioning that wouldn't be sport specific. I'd like to start improving my condition for this sport, so-called now, before I actually start it, so I won't become a quivering, vomiting, sweaty mess on the floor after my first set. And of course, I'm wondering how good the sport specific conditioning, in this particular case, is in the big picture.

 

[Harald Motz]

So if I understood @Harald Motz correctly, the time under tension exercises obstruct the blood flow. This forces the heart to work faster and if not the heart itself, the surroundings will grow due to the increased work rate. And as the breathing is restricted, the energy pathways during the TUT predominantly develop - or just use? - anaerobic energy systems, ATP and glucose. Am I right? That would indeed lead me to consider that the exercises I'm planning on doing won't do alone to bring me good cardiovascular conditioning and health.

Basically this would be my understanding. The weightlifting adapted heart in contrast to the endurance adapted heart is explained thoroughly in Kenneth Jay's "Cardio Code".

And as the breathing is restricted, the energy pathways during the TUT predominantly develop - or just use? - anaerobic energy systems, ATP and glucose. Am I right?

when picturing relatively heavy farmers, or high rep squats a set could be 1-2 min. ATP/PCr pool would be depleted say around 30 sec, anaerobic clycolysis would build ATP, and you literally could carry on, until amounts of Lactat would literally burn you out.

Now, is there a method of conditioning training that can help me get better at tolerating the TUT exercises, that isn't the exercise itself?

My guess would be kind of Tabata, for a short period of time, or once a week. Would be just my guess, as I think a "real" Tabata is grueling stuff.

How far do the walking and running and such go in helping it?

easy locomotion work stretches the heart walls, builds capillaries, builds better or more efficient metabolism to use fat and carbohydrates. You would recover more easily between sets, as the aerobic system pays the dues of oxygen debt caused by anaerobic work.

From my A+A experience I can wholeheartedly say, that my easy locomotion work with the rower and running makes the difference with my A+A training. I recover better between my repeats and recover on a daily basis from lots of relatively heavy snatch volume over weeks and months. My MAF without adjustment would be 140. My bunch with aerobics is 120-130. Sometimes I think the locomotion work can not be slow enough.

I would expect it to naturally be dependent on the load, but I'm left to wonder if it wouldn't be better to do the two things separately, as in to do long walks and train the loaded carries and not to try to combine them in the rucking.

I am fortunate that I do not have to be loading myself with weights all the time, as gravity makes me sometimes heavy enough.

 

[Antti]

Basically this would be my understanding. The weightlifting adapted heart in contrast to the endurance adapted heart is explained thoroughly in Kenneth Jay's "Cardio Code".

when picturing relatively heavy farmers, or high rep squats a set could be 1-2 min. ATP/PCr pool would be depleted say around 30 sec, anaerobic clycolysis would build ATP, and you literally could carry on, until amounts of Lactat would literally burn you out.

My guess would be kind of Tabata, for a short period of time, or once a week. Would be just my guess, as I think a "real" Tabata is grueling stuff.


easy locomotion work stretches the heart walls, builds capillaries, builds better or more efficient metabolism to use fat and carbohydrates. You would recover more easily between sets, as the aerobic system pays the dues of oxygen debt caused by anaerobic work.

From my A+A experience I can wholeheartedly say, that my easy locomotion work with the rower and running makes the difference with my A+A training. I recover better between my repeats and recover on a daily basis from lots of relatively heavy snatch volume over weeks and months. My MAF without adjustment would be 140. My bunch with aerobics is 120-130. Sometimes I think the locomotion work can not be slow enough.

I am fortunate that I do not have to be loading myself with weights all the time, as gravity makes me sometimes heavy enough.

I had thought some kind of Tabata style training could be of use. I've always been interested in it ever since reading about it. And through my barbell lifting endeavours, I've clearly become more masochistic. If not, I wouldn't dream of doing the 20 rep squats. I suppose true Tabata training goes in the same vein.

I could always use some more recovery capabilities. It is something I have become better at with time, and it seems that the resistance training itself does have some effect on overall conditioning. If nothing else, the general strength that I've developed has made moving my body more effortless. Just last fall I marvelled at the ease at with I managed to cycle uphill in a considerable amount of snow when the situation decreed I do it; wouldn't have believed it, and never before would it have been possible for me. But a certain amount of easy conditioning on top could be good, I'm thinking skiing in the winter, and cycling in the summer. I've yet to think of anything for the times in between.

Taking the bodyweight into account regarding the rucking and the relaxation does make a point. I feel very comfortable and relaxed while walking. And I suspect I have enough extra bodyweight on me that I don't need any weight vests or such, even if they on occasion spring to mind. I'm such a weakling, that even with my latest deadlift PR from this week, I have not hit the basic goal of double bodyweight yet.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Looks like I have to thank @CMarker for a timely article.

If we take the squats and carries as the sport, my original point was exactly to find some conditioning that wouldn't be sport specific. I'd like to start improving my condition for this sport, so-called now, before I actually start it, so I won't become a quivering, vomiting, sweaty mess on the floor after my first set. And of course, I'm wondering how good the sport specific conditioning, in this particular case, is in the big picture.

A couple of thoughts here -
while the strength trained heart does indeed have reduced stroke volume this is only compared to a well adapted aerobic leaning athlete. Compared to an untrained individual you will still have increased stroke volume.

I'm still not clear on the training goals as defined - squats and carries. This might encompass an awful lot depending on whether it is a timed effort, elevation changes etc. Does this include vertical leap improvement?

If you are working to improve longer duration at higher intensity, you should begin cycling some form of higher intensity work. I don't think periodizing them once or twice a year is the best strategy compared to shorter duration/more frequency. The body adapts to threshold training by becoming more effective at clearing pyruvate, and also the mitochondria will develop an increased preference and efficiency generating ATP through glycolytic pathways.

That is, aerobic contribution is limited by quantity of mitochondria, aerobic glycolysis actually improves qualitatively as well. I would not ignore basic HIIT protocols or better yet some form of activity specific threshold training whatever else you do if activity in this effort range is anticipated. The good news it doesn't take much training time per week to get good benefits - less than an hour.

Specificity principal = diminished returns from non specific work, both in conditioning and application of force.

What would be the optimal way for me to train the conditioning needed in these pursuits? My first instinct would be to go at it with the specific exercises themselves, but I've understood that something like high rep squats aren't the best way to go about conditioning. Or is it that they're the best way to train the conditioning for the specific practise itself, but not other pursuits? And if they're good for what they are, how does the adaptation that I get from the TUT exercises compare to the adaptation I would get from the typical recommended conditioning practices like A + A&A, low heart rate run or walk, rucking etc?

 

[Antti]

A couple of thoughts here -
while the strength trained heart does indeed have reduced stroke volume this is only compared to a well adapted aerobic leaning athlete. Compared to an untrained individual you will still have increased stroke volume.

I'm still not clear on the training goals as defined - squats and carries. This might encompass an awful lot depending on whether it is a timed effort, elevation changes etc. Does this include vertical leap improvement?

If you are working to improve longer duration at higher intensity, you should begin cycling some form of higher intensity work. I don't think periodizing them once or twice a year is the best strategy compared to shorter duration/more frequency. The body adapts to threshold training by becoming more effective at clearing pyruvate, and also the mitochondria will develop an increased preference and efficiency generating ATP through glycolytic pathways.

That is, aerobic contribution is limited by quantity of mitochondria, aerobic glycolysis actually improves qualitatively as well. I would not ignore basic HIIT protocols or better yet some form of activity specific threshold training whatever else you do if activity in this effort range is anticipated. The good news it doesn't take much training time per week to get good benefits - less than an hour.

Specificity principal = diminished returns from non specific work, both in conditioning and application of force.

I believe the loaded carries are a great exercise. I have experience with them and have heard nothing but good about them. I will have a yard to do them for six months a year or so. After that the yard will be covered in snow, and I believe training the carries in the snow and ice is both impractical and unsafe. I do not have the chances to train the carries indoors.

Squats themselves are a staple in my programming and I believe I've made decent progress in them. So far I've trained them with typical set lengths. I want to try out what the classic 20 rep sets are like for an extended period, and if they will provide a shock to my body. I don't believe that style of squatting is optimal year round. I would resume my typical practice after a short cycle with the high rep sets.

So to be clear, my mention of cycling the training once or twice a year is true only for the high rep squats, not the carries, which have their own limitations, or the conditioning training, which should be doable all year round in some form.

My true, so to say, training goals, for the foreseeable future, lie in the realm of powerlifting.

Whenever I have done squats with 8-12 reps or so, I think my muscles could continue, but it's the lack of oxygen that stops me. It's like all the breathing in the world won't help with the bar on my back. So I'd like to get better at it, using the little oxygen I can get circulating through my body.

I definitely think the lifting I've done has improved my conditioning. But I don't think I can increase the volume anymore, and I think playing with rest periods etc would compromise my strength development. That is, if done consistently; during a hypertrophy period shorter rests can be desirable. So if I wish to improve my conditioning further, it would have to be by other means.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Personally I find a tighter periodization schedule to work very well, is something you might play with before ruling out. In my experience, strength gains generally are unaffected by short term routine changes and generally tend to benefit from more variety in the gaps anyway.

I hear you re the lack of breath - I interpret this as being stopped by my heart rate. Rather than a lack of oxygen is probably a buildup of CO2 and just plain drop off of ATP turnover. When doing the squat the mind is very resistant to allowing total fatigue, esp at higher reps.

8-12 is still almost entirely anaerobic and the deciding factor is probably not going to be aerobic capacity though this will impact your recovery times - more mitochondria helps with PCr and lactate.

I'd still think about waving your pace and loading with the carries to improve your conditioning - this would be the low hanging fruit in your existing regimen. Yak tracks etc could extend this to a year round practice and a great way to get more fresh air in the Winter.

Here's an article with some interesting thoughts re powerlifting - not sure if it applicable to this conversation.
Powerlifters Should Train More Like Bodybuilders • Stronger by Science

 

[Antti]

Personally I find a tighter periodization schedule to work very well, is something you might play with before ruling out. In my experience, strength gains generally are unaffected by short term routine changes and generally tend to benefit from more variety in the gaps anyway.

I hear you re the lack of breath - I interpret this as being stopped by my heart rate. Rather than a lack of oxygen is probably a buildup of CO2 and just plain drop off of ATP turnover. When doing the squat the mind is very resistant to allowing total fatigue, esp at higher reps.

8-12 is still almost entirely anaerobic and the deciding factor is probably not going to be aerobic capacity though this will impact your recovery times - more mitochondria helps with PCr and lactate.

I'd still think about waving your pace and loading with the carries to improve your conditioning - this would be the low hanging fruit in your existing regimen. Yak tracks etc could extend this to a year round practice and a great way to get more fresh air in the Winter.

Here's an article with some interesting thoughts re powerlifting - not sure if it applicable to this conversation.
Powerlifters Should Train More Like Bodybuilders • Stronger by Science

Sure, I do periodization. I like to think in blocks of 10-12 weeks or so. I just finished my latest cycle today. In between the cycles I think there's a great chance for a short break and a breath of fresh air. That's what I think the 20 rep squats would be. In addition to the squats I plan to do more conditioning and work on some of my other weaknesses with greater focus.

I hear you about the heart rate - but doesn't the heart beat faster so it could deliver oxygen faster? I don't know about these things. That's why I ask, and created the thread. And I'd think that improved conditioning in general should at least help me recover better. If it would not help during the set, maybe it would still make it possible for me to do one more set a day.

I'm not sure of the yak tracks. They're snow shoes, right? If I understand the loaded carries right there would be quite a big load a foot when I raise one foot in the air for a step. Going by examples from Dan John there would soon be a load of 250kg/550lbs on a shoe and I doubt the snow would hold. But maybe I'm wrong, I've never tried any snow shoes.

I've read that linked article before. It is a good one, and the site is a good one as well. I agree with the premise of the importance of hypertrophy in continued strength development; I've argued for it on this forum many times.

 

[North Coast Miller]

The Yaktrax are those rubber straps beefed up with metal springs that strap right on over your boot - they add very little bulk. But yes, you'd sink right into any snow, maybe not such a bad thing depending on how deep it is.

The advantage of using your heavy carries for conditioning is that maybe they wouldn't interfere with your squat periodizing.

To me 10-12 weeks is a long run to get continued benefit from a previous stage. I'd be thinking weekly or even daily periodizing - but this is individual preference and it all works.

IIRC heart rate has more to do with buildup of CO2 in the blood than lack of oxygen, the science behind suicide with inert gasses. A drop in blood Ph is associated with increases in HR as well.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

So I'd like to get better at it, using the little oxygen I can get circulating through my body.

Maybe breathing could help you with that.
For example Buteyko breathing requires you to experience air hunger and I think over time your body also adapts to this and becomes more efficient in using oxygen.
Maybe there's also a form of breathing practice that would help with your problem.

Some kind of occlusion training would also maybe yield positive results.

 

[Antti]

Maybe breathing could help you with that.
For example Buteyko breathing requires you to experience air hunger and I think over time your body also adapts to this and becomes more efficient in using oxygen.
Maybe there's also a form of breathing practice that would help with your problem.

Some kind of occlusion training would also maybe yield positive results.

I do some kind of breathing control, so to say. I find I naturally and easily breath through the nose and to my stomach. My meager meditative practice also has me breathing in one way.

I have checked out Buteyko but I'm not sure what makes it stand out. There are many ways to breathe.

 

[Antti]

I did my first squat session yesterday. I did a set of 20 with each 60kg/135lbs, 80kg/180lbs and 100kg/225lbs.

I'm surprised as the breathing and conditioning didn't really let me down. It even wasn't that bad after the first two sets. It did become awful after the third, but it was expected.

All in all the lifting wasn't that bad. It became bad right after it. It was interesting for an hour or so. After that I started feeling better and better and I still feel great the next day. I want to do it again. But I doubt I'll feel the same after my first set the next time.

I think McCallum recommended weight relative to bodyweight, but I'm not sure he had fat slobs like me in mind. I suppose I could take the weights relative to my ideal bodyweight. I can't remember it exactly but I think Dan John had lighter weights recommended in Mass Made Simple. But he went crazy with the set length in the end. I think I'll try to go heavier myself and keep the reps at 20, but I'm not crazy enough to set goals or a progression yet. But it will be interesting to see how the conditioning holds up when the weights get heavier.

EDIT: time under the bar in the last set was 57s, 53s squatting. Last five reps or so went slower.