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Nutrition Cyclical Keto Diet and Strength Training

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EnterSandman

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I moved from a Warrior Diet to keto 1 week ago. I look leaner and this week i tried to stay light with training in order to give my body some time to burn fat instead of carbs.
I thought about doing 1 carb day a week, but all i read about is "it will kick you out of ketosis and it will take days to adapt again". I do not really think i would be able to stay 100% low carb the whole week for months or years without ever eating carbs, i would probably avoid family and friends.
What do you think about ckd or keto for strength?
I train 3 Times a week each day dedicated to each of the 3 powerlifts with reps below 5 and a few assistance.
Right now weekdays are around 2500kcal
 
Okie dokie seeing as I'm hanging around the diet section because I'm struggling with my weight right now despite using the WD - in part due to erratic shift work - may I ask you:

-Your height and weight?
-When you say you look leaner, have you also lost weight?
-Is 2500kcal a deficit for you?
-What does a day of eating look like?

Thanks!

Harry
 
I am 180cm x 100kg. I bulked a lot with carbs and honestly id like to lose 20kg because in my region the 80kg weight class is more competitive.
I dont know about my tdee i am pretty sedentary except for workouts but it could probably be 2900 so yeah it looks def a deficit if i look at the things i used to eat. I just dont see the reason to bulk when the 100kg category has lifters with higher totals.
Right now a day looks like this:

Breakfast-
Salami 150g
Coffee+ 40g of butter

Lunch-
5 whole eggs
2 tbsp oil

Dinner-
Beef 300g
1 tbsp oil
Veggies
 
Oh and about weight loss i didnt really used a scale ill do it every 2 weeks. But my belly is going down pretty sure because of water weight
 
I see... How are you enjoying it so far? Compared to the WD? Satisfied or having to suppress hunger?
 
I think it is pretty much the same as the Anabolic Diet by diPasquale which was also a powerlifter/bodybuilder. 6 days high fat low carb 1 day high carb low fat.
I think macros are different in the AD is 60% fat 35% pro. Ckd is 70% fat 25% pro.
Would that have much difference in strength? DiPasquale said ketosis is not the goal in the AD but isnt using fat as energy source the same thing?
 
Hello,

This article explains that the CD36 protein, which is normally in charge of fat deteection and absorption could also be a specific marker of metastatic cells (cancer).

The protocol was based on feeding 2 mice groups : one with a high fat diet, and another with standard diet. Then, both groups were injected a human cancer. 80% of the high fat group developped a cancer, versus 30% for the standard group.

Fat fuels cancer’s spread in mice

However, some experts remain sceptical due to potential premature conclusions. Additional studies have to be done.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Steve Freides said:
@pet' that's frightening. I hope those conclusions are wrong.

-S-
Click to expand...

@pet'

I am not here to argue a point, but to inform the reader... to build the context that every research paper has to deconstruct in order to "do" research.

The most obvious cause-effect issue is that humans are not rodents, and what occurs in the physiology of a natural grain eater might not reflect that of an omnivore; much less as applied to a laboratory diet.

Next, this is not discussing the cause of cancer, but the spread of it; and it only seems significant in melanoma, breast cancer, and, arguable, oral cancers... as per the original paper cited at the bottom of the article you posted. This cause-effect chain loosens even more as you you dig into the cites of the paper that this article is based on.

My last point is that the paper noted that this cascade of cancer spreading is "caused" by unmetabolized fatty acids, which actually should lead to the idea of getting your human metabolism very efficient at using fatty acids.

There are other points about the paper that make context far more important in understanding it properly. I wouldn't be surprised if this research was done in support of guiding pharmaceutical development.
 
EnterSandman said:
I moved from a Warrior Diet to keto 1 week ago. I look leaner and this week i tried to stay light with training in order to give my body some time to burn fat instead of carbs.
I thought about doing 1 carb day a week, but all i read about is "it will kick you out of ketosis and it will take days to adapt again". I do not really think i would be able to stay 100% low carb the whole week for months or years without ever eating carbs, i would probably avoid family and friends.
What do you think about ckd or keto for strength?
I train 3 Times a week each day dedicated to each of the 3 powerlifts with reps below 5 and a few assistance.
Right now weekdays are around 2500kcal
Click to expand...

Not enough information... age, gender, history?

Ketosis is not the goal, and is almost impossible to maintain if you eat enough protein. Nutrition can be a moving target, and any answers you get today may not apply to tomorrow. Your physiology is constantly adapting.
 
EnterSandman said:
AD but isnt using fat as energy source the same thing?
Click to expand...

Using fat for energy is not the same thing as ketogenesis. You can utilise fat, either dietary or from your storage facilities, and not be anywhere near ketosis. Well, you know, that's my understanding. Plenty of other understandings that my suggest otherwise, such is the way.....
 
I don't know where I read it, but cancer need sugar to live and grow. Where as high fat gives the cancer nothing to feed off. Not sure if it was ketosis or just high fat low carb.
 
I think it would be very difficult to stay fat adapted and not in ketosis; there a number of tissues in the body that can't use fatty acids directly as fuel, which is why your liver creates ketone bodies in the first place. The most important example is the brain, since fatty acids can't cross the blood brain barrier, but ketone bodies can. Of course, your brain can never be 100% ketone adapted (it can only get about 75% of it's total energy requirement from ketones), which is why your liver can also create glucose via gluconeogenesis.

Back to the original point, the CKD is a solid diet choice, if a little more finicky to manage. It works best if you have your high carb days on days that you also do training, so that those carbs get used usefully to rebuild muscle and liver glycogen reserves rather than stored. It's probably best to do a regular ketogenic diet for a month or two first, though to get fully fat adapted before starting a CKD. Once you're fully fat adapted, which takes 3-6 weeks depending on the person, it's easier to go back and forth. The initial transition can take 2-3 days, but once you're off the "insulin roller coaster" you can flip back and forth pretty quickly (within reason)...I usually am back in ketosis within a day after a cheat weekend.

There are some ways to speed the process up (some that I use, some that I don't). One is exogenous ketones. These seem to help transition the body into a state of ketosis more quickly, though I don't personally use them as I don't have an issue with this. Fasting (as you would expect) also helps. I always book end my weekends with a 20ish hour fast, where the only calories I take in are from fat, either via cream in my coffee or a post training protein shake made with heavy cream(obviously, I get protein and a small amount of carbs from the powder). This does a good job of kicking me back into ketosis. Now I *should* be training on the days I'm eating carbs (dinner on Saturday, and sometimes Sunday), but I usually don't since my time commitments on the weekends make training really hit or miss.

Edited to add: if you want solid info on ketogenic diets in general and the CKD in particular, check out "The Ketogenic Diet", by Lyle McDonald. It's easiest to get from his website directly.
 
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Just curious.....for anyone doing a keto.....do you know you are in ketosis? How? Do you do blood tests? And why keto anyway? For straight up fat loss, health condition or anything else? Performances? Strength or ultra running? Honestly, just curious, not knocking it.
 
Hello,

@ali
When you change your diet to go to a ketonic one, the first week, it is possible to be thirsty, "weak", have headache and so on.

After, it is difficult to know it "by yourself". The best way to know it, is to use strips of litmus paper, for urine tests. If I remember well, keto is about 15mg/dl. You are not supposed to exceed 80 (if so, maybe your body has trouble to deal with ketone. Thus, the first thing to do at this time is to drink, and increase a little your gluclose).

Axiom 1 : ketosis appears at different thresholds in function of the person : between 20 and 50 g of carbs a day.

Axiom 2 : to enter in ketosis, protein intake "has to be" between 0,8 and 0,12g/kg/day

The best moment to urine test is in the evening. Indeed, ketone are usually pretty slow in the morning.

Your ketone analysis will be higher after physical activities, due to the cell energy requirements.

Ketonic diet can be good for fat loss and endurance sports. I know it above all for this kind of effort. Almost all hikers I know use this diet. For strength, it seems protein intakes (0,8 - 0,12) is a bit low to permit a real muscle growth.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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I'm trying to follow many of the Keto threads as I just don't know a lot about it and don't personally know anyone who has successfully used it for more than a month or two.

Speculation - It doesn't seem feasible the body would prefer to run on fat as high as 75% of dietary intake. With the exception of folks living the high Northern latitudes and those surviving mostly on shellfish I cannot fathom how any hunter gatherer/pre agricultural cultivation could possibly scare up those percentages even if they were taking wild game on a regular.

And then I hear it is difficult to even know if you are in a good balanced state.

I enjoy fats and proteins, but I've never had trouble matching my goals on a more varied diet that includes plenty of carbs. Just nix the refined sugars and eat breads in moderation or bake your own - IMHO its the preservatives that make many carb sources unhealthy.

OK, I'll go back to quietly following what people say that have more than speculation to offer!
 
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Urine testing strips are the easy way to go, though for fully keto adapted people, they can be misleading as the ketone body excreted in the urine (acetoacetate) is reduced (I'm spacing on the mechanism for this right now), in favor of beta hydroxybutyrate, which is only detectable via a blood test, which is the gold standard for ketone testing.

@North Coast Miller I'm not really coming at this from a paleo perspective...a true paleolithic diet is, as you mentioned, more balanced and has a large chunk of food volume coming from fibrous carbs, with some exceptions, especially among the Inuit. That having been said, there's a much larger proportion of consumable fat in an animal carcass than is typically used today, primarily stored in the organs, brain, and marrow, all of which would have been consumed by hunter gatherer tribes. Most paleo diets are too high in total carbs to stay reliably ketotic, though they usually are pretty close and can usually convert to a ketotic state without the typically accompanying "carb flu" that typically accompanies a switch to either a keto or paleo diet.

The ketogenic diet is really a kind of "hack", that takes this process that the body uses to survive food scarcity and turns it on for weight loss and/or performance purposes. I also like using it as a lifestyle hack; I travel for work, and a lot of times, my food choices aren't really great. If I'm ketotic, then skipping a meal (or two) isn't a big deal, and I can maintain good function until I have better food choices available.
 
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