Daily dose deadlift program with KB swings instead?

kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
just to add more context and clarity..

what is your best 1-3rm in the deadlift?

what can you confidently and comfortably one arm swing for sets of 10?
1Rm about 6 weeks ago 140kg (bw 70kg)

One arm swing sets of 10...20kg definitely...24kg happy at sets of 5
 

kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Like I said, you can but... In this case, you may end up with a mess on your plate and a cut mouth.

Seriously, as much as I love DDD program, I think it is not a good choice for for ballistics. Daily 100 "S&S" barbell deadlifts wouldn't work too, right?

I would do e.g. this program (by Pavel):

Want a simple, but effective workout? Do sets of 10 reps on the minute for as long as you can maintain maximum power. On the surface it seems like the rest is very generous, but remember that we are after power, not “burn.”

Do your swings three times a week, varying the volume. On Friday, do as many perfect sets as you can safely. On the following Monday, do 75 percent of Friday’s number and on Wednesday 50 percent. For example: If on Friday you managed 20 sets, do 15 sets on Monday and 10 on Wednesday.
Awesome, thank you! That seems very achievable.
 

kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Tricky. I have the same KBs (minus the 20kg) and I'm starting to find 10×10 40kg 1H swings are nowhere near as challenging as they used to be. I'm not trying to brag; it's just what happens when you do a lot of swings.

If you're looking to build strength with swings, you're going to need to progress the weight or find another way of adding resistance because a heavy bell will only stay 'heavy' for so long before you get used to it.

If you can wrap your mitts around multiple KB handles at once, you can try deadlifts with a pair of KBs in each hand (a 32 and a 24 in one hand and a 40 and a 16 in the other) but even that's only going to be effective for a short while.

Unfortunately, there comes a point where you either have to invest more time to increase your training volume with a lighter weight or invest money/space in heavier implements or some other means of increasing the resistance.

Maybe a plate-loadable handle (Hungarian core blaster) would be a good compromise. You'd have to invest in some weight plates but they won't take up as much space nor cost as much as an Oly bar. It might be worth checking out.
You make some very good points... have you the chance to see where your DL is at, as a result of your swing training?
 

Chrisdavisjr

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You make some very good points... have you the chance to see where your DL is at, as a result of your swing training?
I'm currently working on my DL, however at the moment, I've only deadlifted a handful of times so I'm still finding the correct technique.

My 'max' currently stands at 110kg (242lbs) at a body weight of (65.9kg) 145lbs but as I am currently working at 100kg (220lbs) for sets of 5 without any real difficulty I expect my max to be considerably higher the next time I test it, but that won't be for a while.

The main difficulty I have is in keeping the bar close to the shins: If the bar is too far from the body it puts stress on the lower back and weakens the pull considerably; it's the deadlift equivalent to hinging too early in the swing.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
I've been reading about the 'Daily dose deadlift program' and I love the sound of it.

One small problem... I don't have a barbell...

Could I replicate it using kettlebell swings instead? (low rep, explosive, heavy-ish perhaps?)

My goal is to improve strength with a minimal effective dose... and I'm doing my best to find ways around not having a BB :-(
Deadlifts are in my opinion better than swings if we're talking strength building. If we're talking what I and some others here accept as "cardio" then kettlebells win because you can use them violently. However, overall, if we're talking muscle development but also saving time and in fact energy along with it, you can get a great deal more done in a fraction of the time with barbell deadlifts. Case in point, me. I'm often too tired or these days it's too sick to do S&S - I am not up to putting forward a sustained 25 minute effort at a hard workout like S&S these days, so what do I do? I do 2-5 (depends on how I'm feeling) deadlifts at 370lbs followed by clean and presses or just presses with the 32kg kettlebells (or singles with the 40kg). This whole thing takes, including rests, maybe a total of 4-5 minutes max, yet I'm getting stronger and I'm keeping my body in fit shape. I don't care at all for the weird percentages suggested by different programs, since I'm not in any kind of hurry to go up in weight - 370lbs is more than 1.5 times my bodyweight already. Pavel came out with PTTP first, long before S&S or ROP and while I don't follow it as a program with its percentages, I follow its logic of deadlifts and presses, and it works brilliantly.

None of this is any kind of knock on S&S, however. S&S is my preferred program because it keeps my heart rate up and handling violent and varied, awkward positions for 25 minutes or so, and I think these are all very important to real world strength and health. However, minus the cardio aspect, I really don't think that deadlifts and presses lack anything substantial.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
Sorry, I should have clarified earlier in the post...the reason for asking, "Can DDDP be adapted in kind to KB swings?" is

A) I don't have a BB (but do have KB's 16,20,24,32,40kg)
B) Small dose strength works for me (high responder, low capacity)
C) I want/ have minimal time, want to keep building strength
D) Don't want to pursue S&S
Kettlebell presses are very time effective. To get a big pull out of the whole thing but without spending too much time, there isn't anything wrong with doing less than 100 swings in a session and preferably fairly heavy ones. So, why not 40 1h swings with the 32 or something like that?
 

CMarker

Double-Digit Post Count
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Craig Marker

This is a good article by Craig; all of his article provide good information.

However, let me make one correction to the article regarding...

"Soviet Olympic weightlifting athletes did not often attempt 1RM in their training. Most of their training was done with 65-85% of their 1RM. This method is contrasted with the Bulgarian-style training systems, which rely on much heavier weights in training."

Soviet Training Percentages

Yes, the Soviet Training Percentages were based on their 1 Repetition Competition Max.

Bulgarian Training Percentages

The Bulgarian Training Percentages were NOT based on their 1 Repetition Competition Max.

The Bulgarian Training Percentages were based on their 1 Repetition "Gym Training Max".

Gym Training Maxes are lower than a Competition Max.

Thus, the Bulgarian Olympic Lifter Training Percentages were virtually the same as the Soviet Training Percentages. Source: Dr Michael Yessis research.

Kenny Croxdale
Thanks Kenny. Could you share that research by Dr. Michael Yessis? I appreciate the comment.
 

Mark Limbaga

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Elite Certified Instructor
1Rm about 6 weeks ago 140kg (bw 70kg)

One arm swing sets of 10...20kg definitely...24kg happy at sets of 5
Something you'll like to hear..

if you can work up to the simple standard, your deadlift will definitely go up based on what I have experienced with myself and trainees..

one arm swinging the 32kg usually merits a 145-155kg deadlift
 

kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Something you'll like to hear..

if you can work up to the simple standard, your deadlift will definitely go up based on what I have experienced with myself and trainees..

one arm swinging the 32kg usually merits a 145-155kg deadlift
Great to hear that - I've got some work do then!
 

guardian7

More than 500 posts
I'm currently working on my DL, however at the moment, I've only deadlifted a handful of times so I'm still finding the correct technique.

My 'max' currently stands at 110kg (242lbs) at a body weight of (65.9kg) 145lbs but as I am currently working at 100kg (220lbs) for sets of 5 without any real difficulty I expect my max to be considerably higher the next time I test it, but that won't be for a while.

The main difficulty I have is in keeping the bar close to the shins: If the bar is too far from the body it puts stress on the lower back and weakens the pull considerably; it's the deadlift equivalent to hinging too early in the swing.
Try to imagine pushing your feet through the floor rather than pulling the bar up. Weird but it seems to help the timing. It also helps you to wedge and get locked in.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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Thanks Kenny. Could you share that research by Dr. Michael Yessis? I appreciate the comment.
Craig, It might have been in Yessis' Secrets of Russian Sports Fitness and Training. I'll see if I can find it and get back with you.

Another interesting point that Yessis made was that Bu


Naim Suleimanov The Pocket Hercules

Thanks Kenny. Could you share that research by Dr. Michael Yessis? I appreciate the comment.
Hi Craig,

I believe that Yessis stated that in the Bulgarian's 1 RM Training Percentage were based off their Training Max vs the Russians working of their Competition Max in his book, Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training. I have the book. I looked for it yesterday (Wednesday/December 19th).

However, I couldn't find the book. I think it may be in storage. I'll check to see if it there, if the information is in it and get back with you.

What I got out it was...


The Bulgarian Method metaphorically produce some over night star. However, their lifting span was shorter than the Russian lifters.

One of the exception for the Bulgarian Olympic Lifter was Naim Suleimanov, "The Pocket Hercules", who as you remember won three Olympic Gold Medals. as a Bulgarian Olympic Lifter and then as a Turkey Olympic Lifter (after Turkey paid him to lift for them).

Due to the intensity of a the of high frequency of Bulgarian Training Program, lifter "Burned Out" (Yessis)

As per Yessis, the Soviets took a different approach, bringing their lifter along slower, ensuring a longer lifting career.

The Bulgarian 1 RM Training Percentages were based on their Training Max rather than their Competition Max. The Russians 1 RM Training Percentage were based on their Competition Max. Thus, the Bulgarian Olympic Lifter were able to train at a much higher percentage of their Training Max compared to training as the Russian did at a much lower percentage of their Competition Max.

The Bulgarian 1 RM Training Percentages appeared to be approximately the same as the Russians in the final analysis (Yessis). The Bulgarian Olympic Lifter using a higher training percentage of of a lower 1 RM Training Max vs the Russian using a lower percentage of a higher 1 RM Competition Max.

In the final analysis, I suspect only Ivan Abadjiev (Coach) and the his Olympic Lifter really know what the Bulgarian Training Method is.

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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Try to imagine pushing your feet through the floor rather than pulling the bar up.
Pushing Vs Pulling The Deadlift

The "Pushing your feet through the floor" is incorrect dogma that continue to be perpetuated.

With that said, Pushing or Pulling is determined more so by which Deadlift Technique you use.

Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifters

Dr Tom McLaughlin's (Phd Exercise Bomechanics, former Powerlifter) finding (back in the 180s) demonstrated that in the Conventional Deadlift, the weight is broken off the floor first by the lower back, with the assistance of the legs. Additional research and anecdotal data supports McLaughlin findings

The muscle firing sequence is: "Back > Legs > Back". The back initiating the drive, follow by the legs, with the back finishing the "Pull".

A common term used in referencing the Powerlifting Deadlift is, "How much did you pull?"

That because the Conventional Powerlift Deadlift is a Pull. No one ask, "How much did you Leg Press off the floor?" (drive off the floor with your legs).

With that said, Olympic Lifters who employ the Deadlift for developing Strength for the First Pull, need to drive their feet into the ground, push the bar away from the floor with their legs with a flat back.

The objective of the Olympic Lifting Deadlift Method is to position the bar for the Second Pull, where the greatest Power Output in sport have been measured, which is needed to "Rack the Weight" in both the Clean and Snatch.

Sumo Deadlift

McLaughlin determined the leg drive the weight off the floor.

The muscle firing sequence is: "Legs > Back". The leg break the weight off the floor, the back finishes the final pull.

Take Home Message

Your training objective need to determine the Deadlift Technique that you use.

In other word, "Use the right took for the right job."

Kenny Croxdale
 

Chrisdavisjr

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@kennycro@@aol.com Thanks for your post. I must admit, I've been finding the 'drive your feet through the ground' and 'leg press' cues somewhat hard to follow. My technique seems to follow the "Back > Legs > Back" sequence you mentioned, so that's reassuring. I suspect I just need to spend some more time with this lift as I've been practising it for only a couple of weeks and focusing too much on where I think I should be rather than how to get stronger from where I currently am.

Much as I am enjoying this topic of conversation, I feel we're drifting away from the OP's thread a little. Perhaps we can pick this up in the 'barbell' section of the forum.
 

CMarker

Double-Digit Post Count
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Thanks Kenny. I am excited to take a look at that book.
Happy Holidays.
Craig, It might have been in Yessis' Secrets of Russian Sports Fitness and Training. I'll see if I can find it and get back with you.

Another interesting point that Yessis made was that Bu


Naim Suleimanov The Pocket Hercules



Hi Craig,

I believe that Yessis stated that in the Bulgarian's 1 RM Training Percentage were based off their Training Max vs the Russians working of their Competition Max in his book, Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training. I have the book. I looked for it yesterday (Wednesday/December 19th).

However, I couldn't find the book. I think it may be in storage. I'll check to see if it there, if the information is in it and get back with you.

What I got out it was...


The Bulgarian Method metaphorically produce some over night star. However, their lifting span was shorter than the Russian lifters.

One of the exception for the Bulgarian Olympic Lifter was Naim Suleimanov, "The Pocket Hercules", who as you remember won three Olympic Gold Medals. as a Bulgarian Olympic Lifter and then as a Turkey Olympic Lifter (after Turkey paid him to lift for them).

Due to the intensity of a the of high frequency of Bulgarian Training Program, lifter "Burned Out" (Yessis)

As per Yessis, the Soviets took a different approach, bringing their lifter along slower, ensuring a longer lifting career.

The Bulgarian 1 RM Training Percentages were based on their Training Max rather than their Competition Max. The Russians 1 RM Training Percentage were based on their Competition Max. Thus, the Bulgarian Olympic Lifter were able to train at a much higher percentage of their Training Max compared to training as the Russian did at a much lower percentage of their Competition Max.

The Bulgarian 1 RM Training Percentages appeared to be approximately the same as the Russians in the final analysis (Yessis). The Bulgarian Olympic Lifter using a higher training percentage of of a lower 1 RM Training Max vs the Russian using a lower percentage of a higher 1 RM Competition Max.

In the final analysis, I suspect only Ivan Abadjiev (Coach) and the his Olympic Lifter really know what the Bulgarian Training Method is.

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Thanks Kenny. I am excited to take a look at that book.
Happy Holidays.
Craig,

I haven't ventured out to look for Yessis book that I believe is at the storage unit.

However, I did find this...

Olympic weightlifting

Competition 1RM and training 1RM

Although the characterisation of the differences between the Russian and Bulgarian methods of training for Olympic weightlifting described above is now widely accepted, the differences may not be as stark as is generally believed. Zatsiorsky (1992) compared the Russian and Bulgarian methods, noting the main difference between the two groups is the number of lifts reported at >90% of 1RM. According to the calculations made by Zatsiorsky (1992), the Russian teams report just 600 lifts per year, while the Bulgarian athletes report 4,000 such lifts a year. Zatsiorsky (1992) explains that this is not as substantial a difference as immediately appears, as the 1RM used by the Russian method is the competition 1RM, while the Bulgarian approach uses a training 1RM, which is typically around 10 – 15% lower, depending on the weight class. When normalising both classifications to refer to competition 1RM, the number of lifts performed in the Bulgarian system that are >90% of 1RM is much reduced.–

Article Resource: 290. Zatsiorsky, V. M. (1992). International Perspective: Intensity of Strength Training Facts and Theory: Russian and Eastern European Approach. Strength & Conditioning Journal, 14(5), 46-57.[Citation]
file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/International_Perspective__Intensity_of_Strength.11%20(1).pdf

During the 1980s, Russian and Bulgarian weight lifting teams won almost all of the gold medals at World and Olympic competitions. It has been reported many times that Bulgarian athletes lift barbells of maximal weight more than 4,000 times a year. The training intensity of Bulgarian athletes is actually higher than it is for Russian athletes. However, the real source of such a huge discrepancy (600 versus 4,000 lifts a year) is not the training itself, but the method of determining maximal weight. Russian athletes use CFm in their plans and logs, while Bulgarians stick to TFm (1 RM in a given training session).

I may have orignally read that information in Zatsiorsky's Science and Practice of Strength Training.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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watchnerd

Triple-Digit Post Count

Could I replicate it using kettlebell swings instead? (low rep, explosive, heavy-ish perhaps?)
Whether you have a barbell or not, the swing is a ballistic move, a deadlift isn't.

As a result, I don't see how they're substitutable goods in any sense, other than they both work the posterior chain and are hinges.

But one could make the same type of comparison about barbell cleans (barbell, posterior chain, explosive) vs deadlifts (barbell, posterior chain, grind), too.

As for using a heavy KB to do KB deadlifts....

The economics seem lopsided.

For the price of a max weight kettlebell (say 92kg), you can get a 'good enough for deadlifts' bushing-based barbell and some used cheap iron weights off Craigslist.
 
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kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Whether you have a barbell or not, the swing is a ballistic move, a deadlift isn't.

As a result, I don't see how they're substitutable goods in any sense, other than they both work the posterior chain and are hinges.

But one could make the same type of comparison about barbell cleans (barbell, posterior chain, explosive) vs deadlifts (barbell, posterior chain, grind), too.

As for using a heavy KB to do KB deadlifts....

The economics seem lopsided.

For the price of a max weight kettlebell (say 92kg), you can be a 'good enough for deadlifts' bushing-based barbell and some used cheap iron weights off Craigslist.

True....
 
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