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Barbell Deadlift form check (back pain)

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morefireblaze

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Hi all. This is my first post in the forums after reading them for about 6 months. I find it amusing that my first post is in the Barbell section, as I joined to learn more about kettlebells, and my goal is to one day be able to post in the "I achieved timed Simple" thread. I recently started learning the big barbell lifts in addition to practising swings and TGUs, and I've been enjoying all of it greatly.

However, I stepped up to 100kgs on the deadlift last night, and while it didn't feel too bad at the time, my lower back was quite sore afterwards, and still hurts today. Video is attached for form critique.

For background, I'm 42 years old, 6ft 2in tall, and weigh 90kg. I had some neck issues last year that I worked through with a physiotherapist, who has given me the green light for both kettlebell and barbell training, and I've done a couple private classes with an SFG here in my city. Poor posture is my biggest problem, which I've been working hard on fixing. Thanks for reading.
 
Looks good, @morefireblaze. Congrats on starting to train with barbells and kettlebells!

I like your set up, your timing and temp of the lifts and set, your bar path, your gaze. The basic lift is good.

The main thing I see is you need to get tighter in the lats and the back. Now, whether that's a matter of focus and cuing, or whether you just have to build that strength, is something for you to experiment with as you try it with a weigh that you can feel you can do this with, and then work your way back up to this weight and see if you still can.

It seems the internet is all over the place with deadlift technique these days... whether it matters if you have some flexion in your back, etc... But my preference, for myself and when I teach the deadlift, is to get in to the starting stance as you are, and then squeeze the back flat, chest forward, lats tight, abs tight, arms long and slack pulled out (you'll hear the collars click), and THEN initiate the push with the legs to break the weight off the floor, holding that back position all the way up to lockout and all the way down as you fall with the weight.

It also looks like your lockout is just a tiny bit short of full lockout, with shoulders behind the bar, full hip extension.

As you do your reps, pay attention to where the weight is on your feet -- if it comes forward on the toes, you'll have much more load on the low back, which might account for what you're feeling. Then again, it might simply be a lot of load (volume x weight) compared to what you're adapted to.

But all in all, basically looks fine... keep lifting!
 
Thanks for the replies Anna and Steve. It's good to know I have some of the basics down at least. Now that you both mention the lats and shoulders, I think you're dead right (no pun intended) and I need to keep them tight and pulled back. I don't think I've been engaging my core as much as I should too. Once I'm feeling normal again, I'll reduce the weight a bit, and try again keeping your advice in mind.
 
I am NOT a coach or expert, so I can’t offer advice. However, I have found this video great for getting the setup right and pulling the slack out of the bar.

 
Thanks @BJJ Shawn - funnily enough that was one of the first deadlift instructional videos I watched before I started learning. I might watch it again before my next attempt, so that it's all fresh in my mind.
 
I couldn't get the video to upload here for some reason, so here it is on YouTube:

Sorry I'm a little late in seeing this. It's hard to tell from that angle that isn't a straight profile, but it appears like as you start to rise, there's a slight rolling of your lower back from the straight position. Then again, it may just be that your shirt is bunched up. It appears to get slightly worse with each rep as you tire maybe. I know that was a problem for me when barbell squating and tiring, turning them into heavy good mornings, and it often made my back sore. Again, this just appears to be a slight rolling of your lower back, but it's hard to tell.
 
Your shoulders are further in front of the bar than is ideal.
How can you tell? what is the rule to choose shoulder position in deadlift?

To the OP, the pain can be from somethings else. "Back" into early 2020, I had back pain while during deadlift and some others lift. I posted the clip on the forums and overall, my form was okay (my lats needs to be tighter - that is only "negative" comment - came from Antti, if I remember correctly). Then I figured out I have tightness in different parts of my posterior chain and it was a main reason which cause my pain back then. If you cannot scan the error from your deadlift then you should search in someplace else.
 
Something I have noticed and the corresponding suggestion..

Those who tend to feel their lower back too much in a conventional deadlift, I shift them temporarily to sumo so they get a feel of how to use their legs and hips better in the lift.

Once that is dialed in, I let them revisit the conventional deadlift..

But as always YMMV
 
How can you tell? what is the rule to choose shoulder position in deadlift?
To address this and also the OP's comments: I don't think the upper back and shoulders need to be as most people suggest, back. There are some strong rounded-upper-back deadlifters out there.

In the OP's case, I think he needs to try to get his shoulders further back by sitting into his hips more.

The math for deadlifting with your shoulders in front of the bar at the start isn't pretty - if the weight gets heavy, when it breaks off the ground, it will want to swing away from you. There are a lot of things that don't become noticeable in the deadlift until the deadlift gets heavy.

If I had this all figured out, I'd have deadlifted more than I have by now, but the above is what I know. Have a look at the deadlifts of Konstantin Konstantinov (may he rest in peace.)

-S-
 
Just as a personal observation, I've noticed a number of older manuals of weightlifting specify that when performing deadlifts or cleans, the shoulders should be slightly 'in advance of the bar'.

If 'shoulder' refers to the anterior deltoid, this would make sense as this would place the bar directly below the shoulder joint rather than the visible 'bulk' of the shoulder itself when viewed from the side.

I can't think of any deadlift where you'd want the bar (or other weight) to be out in front, although I've seen heavy deadlifts where the lifters purposely had their shoulders behind the bar once it had passed the knees so they could rest the weight on their thighs and 'hitch' to get the bar to lockout, which I gather is not permitted in most PL federations
 
The math for deadlifting with your shoulders in front of the bar at the start isn't pretty - if the weight gets heavy, when it breaks off the ground, it will want to swing away from you. There are a lot of things that don't become noticeable in the deadlift until the deadlift gets heavy.
I believe that's related to body structure. I tried deadlift with shoulders at the bar level and it was always hard for me even with light weight.

Marty Gallagher's guide to deadlift is similar to your describe
 
How can you tell? what is the rule to choose shoulder position in deadlift?
You want to have the shoulders on top of the bar, and not in front, to provide a linear path to the bar on the way up and keep it close to your body, preferably touching your shins and legs. This way you avoid the bar from going away from you, when you start the pull, which will make your lift way harder and might make you lose your stance by pulling you forward as well.
If you find it hard you need to make small adjustments in your stance or maybe you want to try sumo stance to be in a more upright position.
 
even with sumo I tend to be stronger with shoulder forward.
You might feel stronger just because you are used to it and you feel comfortable lifting that way. Adding small changes might help improve your lifts, but of course first you need to take a few steps back, practice and get used to it.
Anyway I am not here to change your mind or school you. If you are happy with your training and your lifts, that's what it matters.
Keep living strong !
 
Anyway I am not here to change your mind or school you.
I come here to learn. This is school of strength, remember? :cool:

I don't try to be a smart glute, I just really wonder what are the real principles that stand behind all the rules in deadlift.

I agree with keeping the bar close to the body. For the shoulder position; I believe the body structure play a big role. To put shoulder right on top of the bar, my hips level need to be just above the knee a bit. Some people at my gym have their hips at knee level to keep the shoulder on top of the bar. It's look like squat or clean deadlift more than deadlift to me.

I went to a workshop deadlift in my city few months ago. They teach sumo with shoulders are on top of the bar, and with convent the shoulders are above a bit. But it's no hard and fast rule they said. It feels more nature for me. Some of my friends also came and after two months of applying new technique (for them) their deadlifts grew (one from 120 kg to 170 kg at 75 kg body weight, one from 170 kg 1RM sumo with soft knee lock to 170 kg x 3 full locked knee).

So I'm really...confuse.
 
As far as I can tell, body structure should have nothing to do with where the bar is positioned in relation to the shoulder joint: Gravity pulls downwards no matter how you're built.

Having the shoulder joint forwards of the bar will require you to engage the lats and draw the arms towards the body in order to keep the bar close. It could be that this is helping in some way to keep the lats engaged and the back tightly arched but you should be able to do this with your shoulders directly over the bar.

It can get confusing as having the shoulder joint directly over the bar will place the front of your anterior deltoid slightly ahead of the bar (or more than slightly, depending on how bulky your shoulders are) giving the impression that the shoulders are in front of the bar even though it's directly below the shoulder joint (this image provides a perfect example: the lifter's shoulders may appear to be out in front of the bar but the bar is in fact directly below the shoulder joint and the arms are loose and relaxed).

I hope that makes sense.
 
I come here to learn. This is school of strength, remember?
As we all do.

Different body structure will make the lift look different for a lot of people. But at the end of the day you as a lifter want your technique to be as efficient as possible, so you want the distance the bar travels to be the shortest possible and you want the bar to be as close as possible to you, and for one of these things to happen having your shoulders on top of the bar rather than forward definitely helps.
I understand what you say that doing what you are most comfortable a lot of the times can bring results up to a point, but efficient technique will always be superior and I can tell you from my own experience.
Last year I had a few months dedicated to only BB lifts and from March to August I managed to get all of them quite high. Bench press from 105kg to 137.5kg, DL from 140kg to 200kg and squat from 120 to 165kg at 78kg +-. Some are beginner gains and some are a good program with plenty of rest and nutrition.
Watching the video of my DL at 200kg, in a sumo lift, where my shoulders were still far from being on top of the bar and from that moment the bar was never close to me up to lockout position. Did I close the lift? Yes! Was I happy with the lift? kinda, because you always want a lift to look good and be efficient. It was not the best looking lift and I had a coach with me which the first thing he pointed out was how far the bar was from my body. For sure I could have done way better if my technique was on point for certain aspects. If you practice good technique you will have a good technique which will result in smooth and good lifts when you try ne RMs.
So what I am trying to say is that if you do well now, you might do even better if you practice some of the ques which are recommended when practicing a lift.
Here I present only my opinion and some of my personal experience.
 
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