Barbell Deadlift form check (back pain)

[Steve Freides]

@q.Hung, the kind of things you're talking about are where lifting gets interesting, IMHO.

The reason for specialized variety training is that, when the weight you're moving becomes heavy enough, you must reply on the parts of your technique and your structure and your strength that do the job best. All well and good, that, but if you can figure out what parts of your technique are less than ideal, what parts of your structure might suggest a change in form, and what parts of your body are weakest, improving any of those things can mean that how you deadlift changes, and then you can become able to move more weight. Put very simply, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This is why we say that, for a long time, a lifter should just do the lift, but once you reach a certain stage, you may need specialized variety in your training, and for some people, that specialized variety may become the bulk of their training.

My example: I looked again this morning at my two meet deadlifts from April 17. 150 kg looks good, 162.5 kg looks lousy. I've got work to do because I was unable to maintain the same form with 162.5 that I had with 150. Back to the drawing board for me as I'm looking for 3 reds and the clamps on the bar sometime in the near future, and that's 175 kg, and I don't have that now, but I want, want, want it!

-S-

 

[Hung]

I respect all the answers that you guys give me, but still, I'm not satisfied - but mostly about I can not explain what I think in proper English so we can have a deeper discussion. I will do my homework more and try to bring new ideas to the table.

 

[william bad butt]

I respect all the answers that you guys give me, but still, I'm not satisfied - but mostly about I can not explain what I think in proper English so we can have a deeper discussion. I will do my homework more and try to bring new ideas to the table.

I minor comment on this topic...

The deadlift is a unique lift in that it requires "planning" when you lift. I'll come back to this.... Keep in mind I'm a conventional deadlifter but I think this applies to sumo too.

Imagine if the deadlift ROM only consisted of lifting the bar off the ground to a height of 6", or just below your knees. If this was the case, a rounded back with shoulders over the bar, and maybe even a higher stance with a more horizontal back might be best. Why is this the case? Because it is optimal because the bar is in the center of mass. But what happens if you wanted to go beyond the 6" or above your knees? Unfortunately, now you are in a compromised position and the 2nd half of the lift is going to be very difficult. Why? Because now the bar is not in the center of mass and you are stuck in a compromised rounded back.

The deadlift, to me, is almost 2 lifts in series. Breaking it off the floor is one, and standing up from the bar below the knees is two.

Imagine if you are doing a rack pull starting with the bar just below your knees. The most efficient way to do this is the opposite of the 1st example. Shoulders back, more vertical back angle, etc...

So, what does this all mean? It means that you have to plan ahead. I am flexion intolerant. I must use a flat back with shoulders back form, even though it limits how much I can break off the floor. This is probably best for most people since it compromises ones spine. It is likely safer too. Watch a newer lifter do a heavy conventional deadlift (with poor form) and you will see them using too much weight, leaning over the bar (because they are not strong enough to break the bar off the ground leaning back), and then they are in an odd position and must finish the lift looking like a cat while hitching.

But if you are a sumo lifter (which is inherently harder to break off the floor), and if your weak point is the floor, maybe there are exceptions and it makes sense.

You are not a beginner deadlifter, you deadlift >2.5 times bodyweight. Quite intermediate or maybe even advanced! You have permission to deviate from the standard rules! ?

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I respect all the answers that you guys give me, but still, I'm not satisfied - but mostly about I can not explain what I think in proper English so we can have a deeper discussion. I will do my homework more and try to bring new ideas to the table.

If you could take a video of your deadlift from the side we can see what's happening and maybe figure out how it works.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

You are not a beginner deadlifter, you deadlift >2.5 times bodyweight. Quite intermediate or maybe even advanced! You have permission to deviate from the standard rules

Now it depends what rules you are talking about, but in my opinion the heavier you lift the more you want to stick to the "technical rules".

 

[william bad butt]

Now it depends what rules you are talking about, but in my opinion the heavier you lift the more you want to stick to the "technical rules".

That is actually a really good point you made. One may be able to make progress with so-so form and then hit a wall! My only point is that all rules are guidelines. And after you get the time/reps in one must make decisions. Man is free! We must choose what is best for us.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Man is free!

But not so from the clutches of gravity!*

*Saturn V rockets and the like notwithstanding.

 

[Anna C]

I just really wonder what are the real principles that stand behind all the rules in deadlift.

@q.Hung, it depends on whose principles or system you are subscribing to. But there are certainly some inescapable laws of physics involved. You might enjoy these this article and this one which both dive into many details, including shoulder position -- with a caveat that these details are in the context of a certain style of deadlifting (Starting Strength, which is my preferred style for a conventional deadlift, and also shown in the Alan Thrall video posted above).

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

@q.Hung, it depends on whose principles or system you are subscribing to. But there are certainly some inescapable laws of physics involved. You might enjoy these this article and this one which both dive into many details, including shoulder position -- with a caveat that these details are in the context of a certain style of deadlifting (Starting Strength, which is my preferred style for a conventional deadlift, and also shown in the Alan Thrall video posted above).

I did have a quick scan through the first article and I'm still not quite with Rip on the 'shoulders forward of the bar'. He provides a video example to illustrate the point but what I'm seeing from the moment the bar is off the floor is shoulders above the bar:



This guy has hefty delts so there's no question the leading edge of his shoulder (if shoulders can indeed be said to have 'edges') is definitely ahead of the bar but I see the barbell hanging straight downwards from loose arms and no significant angle to the arms. Am I missing something? I did skim-read the article without caffeine so it's entirely possible.

 

[Anna C]

I did have a quick scan through the first article and I'm still not quite with Rip on the 'shoulders forward of the bar'. He provides a video example to illustrate the point but what I'm seeing from the moment the bar is off the floor is shoulders above the bar:

View attachment 13609

This guy has hefty delts so there's no question the leading edge of his shoulder (if shoulders can indeed be said to have 'edges') is definitely ahead of the bar but I see the barbell hanging straight downwards from loose arms and no significant angle to the arms. Am I missing something? I did skim-read the article without caffeine so it's entirely possible.

It depends on what you mean by "shoulder". I understand it to be shoulder blades that are directly over the bar in the optimum leverage. This is the illustration in Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training (3rd Edition).



Again, this is one model -- one that is extensively explained in the book SSBBT, and one that I prefer myself -- but is not the only model out there. And for any model, there can be components that can be taken out of context of the rest of the model and therefore may not work as advertised when other variations are introduced.

 

[Steve Freides]

I just really wonder what are the real principles that stand behind all the rules in deadlift.

If you would like to understand StrongFirst's principles of deadlifting, read Power To The People! by Pavel. It's all in there.

-S-

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

It depends on what you mean by "shoulder". I understand it to be shoulder blades that are directly over the bar in the optimum leverage.

This certainly makes more sense to me. I'm clearly just a stickler for precision: "What exactly do you mean by 'shoulder'?". I'm something of a coach's nightmare at times!

If you would like to understand StrongFirst's principles of deadlifting, read Power To The People! by Pavel. It's all in there.

Yes! It's an excellent resource, it really is.

Just found this handy dandy tutorial on the StrongFirst Czechia YouTube channel:

​

The shoulders are definitely ahead of the bar in the initial set-up position but then the 'wedge' drives them back. They do still appear to be somewhat forward of the bar for the actual lift but the lift happens so quickly it's hard to tell.

 

[Anna C]

If you would like to understand StrongFirst's principles of deadlifting, read Power To The People! by Pavel. It's all in there.

-S-

Yes it is... quite full of great tips, descriptions, options, and principles... But not "rules". I'm not saying that's good or bad -- it's a fantastic resource. It's just a different way. Starting Strength has a particular model for how to do a deadlift and therefore there are rules. Pavel in PTTP describes principles that can be applied. So because of that particular style of presentation I don't see anything in PTTP that says exactly where the shoulders should be at the start of the pull.... because it's going to depend on exactly how all of those options are applied and individualized.

 

[Snake River Jim]

my lower back was quite sore afterwards, and still hurts today

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So you’ve been training, but have started experiencing pain. This is an extremely common experience that we get asked about on a daily basis. Essentially,

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[North Coast Miller]

I minor comment on this topic...

The deadlift is a unique lift in that it requires "planning" when you lift. I'll come back to this.... Keep in mind I'm a conventional deadlifter but I think this applies to sumo too.

Imagine if the deadlift ROM only consisted of lifting the bar off the ground to a height of 6", or just below your knees. If this was the case, a rounded back with shoulders over the bar, and maybe even a higher stance with a more horizontal back might be best. Why is this the case? Because it is optimal because the bar is in the center of mass. But what happens if you wanted to go beyond the 6" or above your knees? Unfortunately, now you are in a compromised position and the 2nd half of the lift is going to be very difficult. Why? Because now the bar is not in the center of mass and you are stuck in a compromised rounded back.

The deadlift, to me, is almost 2 lifts in series. Breaking it off the floor is one, and standing up from the bar below the knees is two.

Imagine if you are doing a rack pull starting with the bar just below your knees. The most efficient way to do this is the opposite of the 1st example. Shoulders back, more vertical back angle, etc...

So, what does this all mean? It means that you have to plan ahead. I am flexion intolerant. I must use a flat back with shoulders back form, even though it limits how much I can break off the floor. This is probably best for most people since it compromises ones spine. It is likely safer too. Watch a newer lifter do a heavy conventional deadlift (with poor form) and you will see them using too much weight, leaning over the bar (because they are not strong enough to break the bar off the ground leaning back), and then they are in an odd position and must finish the lift looking like a cat while hitching.

But if you are a sumo lifter (which is inherently harder to break off the floor), and if your weak point is the floor, maybe there are exceptions and it makes sense.

You are not a beginner deadlifter, you deadlift >2.5 times bodyweight. Quite intermediate or maybe even advanced! You have permission to deviate from the standard rules! ?

The subtle mechanics per individual in dealing with this aspect is what makes so many DLs look different form each other. I use flat back, shoulders back, pull slack out of shoulders and arms. Once there is tension on the shoulders I use this as a brace to pull my hips forward setting up a flat back. I have learned over the years that even if it feels slightly extended it really isn't, and certainly won't be once the load is applied.

if it doesn't feel solid enough to do a max effort isometric exertion and everything is nice and tight, something's wrong.

For the OP original video, @morefireblaze I am not an expert but it looks like the eccentric portion is the bigger problem spot, shoulders come forward slightly and lower back flexes at the initiation from lockout before hinge cracks. Also the last few sets are not as crisp as the first two in terms of sitting back and maintaining neutral back - def some flexion and shoulders forward a bit.

 

[morefireblaze]

For the OP original video, @morefireblaze I am not an expert but it looks like the eccentric portion is the bigger problem spot, shoulders come forward slightly and lower back flexes at the initiation from lockout before hinge cracks. Also the last few sets are not as crisp as the first two in terms of sitting back and maintaining neutral back - def some flexion and shoulders forward a bit.

Thanks - from the time I first started deadlifting, I have suspected that coming down is really where I'm getting in to trouble. I'll try to remember to keep the shoulders back and back flat on the eccentric also!

 

[Brett Jones]

So I went back and looked at the OP video.
Two things jump out at me
1) it looks like your feet are straight ahead and during your set up it appears your lower back is forced into flexion—this could be due to the position of the hips—try turning the feet out a bit (look for my article on the lock and rock—Adjust Your Sails) and actively pull yourself to the bottom position don't try to find your position at the bottom (another article—How to Get Properly Loaded in the Deadlift and Swing | StrongFirst )

2) You are pulling with your back instead of wedging yourself between the floor and the bar (you may feel the bar more in your hands instead of feeling equalling loaded between the feet and hands)—Drive into the ground with the feet and get compressed between the bar and floor. The start will be "slow."

Obviously I would recommend getting your back checked by a healthcare provider and not DLing again until cleared to do so.

 

[morefireblaze]

Thanks Brett, much appreciated! I'll definitely read those articles you mention, thanks.

My back came good after a few days rest, and I've deadlifted twice since then, dropping the weight back to 90kg (my bodyweight). No pain this time, but I know there's still a lot of room for improvement.

Thanks again everyone. This really is a great community.

 

[Hung]

As far as I can tell, body structure should have nothing to do with where the bar is positioned in relation to the shoulder joint: Gravity pulls downwards no matter how you're built.

Sorry for the late reply, I misread this one. Please clarify more about the gravity force in this situation.

Having the shoulder joint forwards of the bar will require you to engage the lats and draw the arms towards the body in order to keep the bar close. It could be that this is helping in some way to keep the lats engaged and the back tightly arched but you should be able to do this with your shoulders directly over the bar.

I do not disagree with this one, but my point for forward shoulder is my glute gets to a higher position so the start of the lift becomes easier. Not about activate the lats to keep the bar close to the body (I'm totally agree with that idea btw)

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Sorry for the late reply, I misread this one. Please clarify more about the gravity force in this situation.

No problem! What I meant was that a heavy enough barbell will pull the arms straight down, placing the barbell directly beneath the shoulder joint. Your body proportions will not affect the direction that gravity pulls the bar and if you're keeping your shoulder ahead of the bar, you're expending a lot of energy to keep the bar close to the body.

I do not disagree with this one, but my point for forward shoulder is my glute gets to a higher position so the start of the lift becomes easier. Not about activate the lats to keep the bar close to the body (I'm totally agree with that idea btw)

Having your shoulders ahead of the bar in the set-up makes sense, although once you've wedged-in and started the lift (i.e. the bar has come off the floor) I wouldn't be surprised if your shoulders were over the bar at that point. I'd love to see a video of your DL from the side (at 85% 1RM, ideally) just to see what actually happens because I could be completely wrong.